Lionel, How about offering ES44AC's in 2-Rail? Fixed Pilots w/ Kadee couplers of course!

you must be kidding right?

???Lionel??????

Rick

 Wow Frank, do the new Legacy boards work on straight DC power?? DCC too?? I didn't know about that. Their old boards only ran with AC I believe?

Holy smokes Frank you are right!!! I did a quick search and found the AF sd70ACe owners manual.  Check out page 24..that is exciting! I hope that this does translate into their O scale equipment.  I would love to have one of the diecast es44 in 2 rail! 

Honestly, I was wondering how long it would take them to catch up with MTH's PS3 boards in terms of compatibility.

I might be saying goodbye to DCS and my PS2 locos sooner than I had hoped. It seems that the manufacturers are finally jumping onto the DCC bus (its about time).  Just think soon we will be able to run every manufactures equipment together with no hassle...what an amazing idea (should have come to O scale sooner).  

If this works out how I hope it will, I will move to pure DCC so I can run MTH, Atlas, Brass, and hopefully Lionel. Exciting step forward!

Heres a link to the AF manual: http://www.lionel.com/media/se...748171250SD70ACe.pdf

Wow could you imagine this?....Everyones products playing nicely together...sounds interesting.

Chris

Had to happen sooner or later. My understanding is that TMCC actually used DCC command protocols, but used radio transmission rather than sending it down the track. Makes sense since a DCC track signal would drive a conventional AC Lionel engine nuts.

I just wish the price of high-current DCC systems would come down a bit

 Yeap, one min in on the video he states DCC and DC. Wow.

And, it works.  No switches, jumpers, rewiring or replacing boards required.

Rusty

Lionel's diecast ES44 is a very nice loco. I remember seeing one in a hobby shop several years ago when they first came out. The cab interior and the semi-fixed pilot made me contemplate purchasing one and 2 railing it. I had some spare OMI wheelsets and gearboxes that would've been used along with Pittman motor. I still might purchase one of Lionels heritage ES44's for purpose of 2 railing.

Travis

IMO, Lionel's latest Legacy locos in terms of overall realism seem to be a slight step above similar offerings from MTH.  

 Yeah, I think some guys need to take a closer look. I saw the EVO with diecast metal body. The detailing looked very good to me. I didn't compare it to any drawings for accuracy so I only know it had a wow factor at first look. Their pilot design is very good for still allowing them to run on tighter 3 rail track curves.

 I applaud any company for considering to offer their new products in two rail. The sounds are good, operation seemed very smooth, and built well for long running. Why wouldn't we give them a look? I'm already buying their products and struggling to convert them.

We are in the 21st Century.  It is time for Lionel to join. 

2 rail would be an excellent way for them to expand their market.  They do have Standard O products that would work in 2 rail scale.  Lionel ought to expand what they are doing electronically in S scale to O scale. 

It wouldn't surprise me if it comes sooner than later. I've said it before, Lionel is known for taking risks like this. Lionel 2 rail engines would be a great step in their offerings. And with their recent offerings both in engines and rolling stock I would be more than willing to pay for their products if they were offered in 2 rail. Exciting times ahead.

Rarely does it happen overnight but I would welcome it.  I'd be interested to see what a diecast diesel could do.  Hopefully its 6 wheel drive per truck instead of that disaster SD70ACe (with flanges too big even 3 railers were complaining it was hoping over frogs and the fact that it had a swinging idler wheel).  However, I'm not as optimistic are you folks are.  The company has a proven record of not producing product for the 2 rail market with only three known exceptions.  They produce great standard O rolling stock of past but their recent offerings using new tooling seems to have taken a step backwards.  I doubt they would do it.  I'm confident they won't and I dare them to do it and if they do I'll buy their $879 locos 2 rail fixed pilots.  (Like MTH will they charge a 2 rail premium over the hi-rail version?  maybe $900)  I've always purchased ES44's in minimum of pairs so the Lionel wallet dinger better be worth it for the price of 2 MTH units.

Regarding the sound, I'm not sure I like what I hear on youtube.  I will have to hear it for myself.

I believe Lionel is really the only thing that's keeping 2 rail O scale from exploding. I believe if they would baby step into it kinda like MTH has done, eventually the 2 rail market would boom for 2 reasons. 1, we wouldn't have to convert their stuff to operate on 2 rail and 2, I think Lionel could really profit from it and help their market share. My own opinion of course.

 I personally feel that there will come a time that Hi rail becomes the less desired thing. As new people come into the hobby, if they see both products, the choice will be obvious. A lot of older Hi-railers can't or won't let go. New guys won't be confined to older ways and beliefs.

 Frank, I don't know the exact history. Lionel has already dabbled a couple of times with two rail?? I've seen old couplers and wheels of theirs. I really think it would be good for the future of O. I know a lot of purists will not look at a 3 rail company's products. I believe new customers will.

 I can't help comparing and buying their cars that are detail oriented and converting them. Their older engines are just a bit too tough to convert. I should get a newer one and try it again.

 How hard was it for the guys to remove the wheels that needed the ACe's flanges ground down?

I did Beta testing for Lionel on the new S gauge electronics that John Z. has created. They work fantastically well. Like Swafford says, they just sense what signal is on the track and enter the appropriate operating mode. There is no technical reason they couldn't do the same thing in O. However, there is no technical reason for the 3rd rail either today, but they still do that so...

About 20 years ago I went to a garden railroad convention.  There was a representative for USATrains there.  I asked him about parts availability as I was trying to do some kitbashing/superdetailing.  His response was "We do not support model railroaders and would prefer it if they stayed out of garden railroading.  We only want customers who are happy with things the way we market them."  He went on but by then I had tuned him out.

If you talk to Lionel people you will get a very similar response.  They support only the customer base who want what Lionel makes the way Lionel makes it and they really would really prefer it if people who want it otherwise did not buy their products. 

In short, they would really like it if 2-rail 1/48th people would just leave them alone. 

When I spoke to one Lionel person about me 2-railing their F3s several years ago, because I thought they were the best out scale F3s available his response was "then why did I ruin them?"  When I told him I was also 2-railing some of their freight cars his response was "Well, I guess we can't stop you".

Lionel has recently taken a position of not selling their body parts as parts anymore for their new models specifically to stop people from using them to make 2-rail models.  You have to send them one to get one.

OBTW, the new ES44s are plastic, not diecast.

Yep, that's the Lionel I know. The only thing that puzzles me is why they have made so many changes for the S gauge crowd? I mean they have the auto sensing electronics that run on AC/DC/DCC/TMCC/Legacy, Scale Diesels with scale wheels and couplers, and heck they even worked with a 3rd party to make scale wheels for the Y3 steam engine. I find it hard to believe S scale is bigger than O scale. I don't know what they are thinking. Especially after watching the interviews with the new mgmt. team...

"..... .....(too) much top management oversight.........."

    Thus the ongoing Lionel problem. 

Segmented teams running under their own individual power requiring a substantial employee payroll expense resulting in an elevated product cost.

Lionel management teams producing 0 scale 2 rail could be like trying to drive Greyhound busses side by side down urban back alleys.

Knowing that helps to understand the level of success MTH has and their resulting price points

Hmmm...... I would pay to watch that,   

Actually that isn't the main focus at Lionel, Model Railroading, that is. Remember that Lionel is a "Toy TRain" manufacturer, and SOME 2-Rail Model Railroaders OCCASIONALLY choose their products and UP-GRADE them to 2-Rail SCALE.

This is pretty much what I was going to say about Lionel. Something I have always suspected is that they don't want model railroaders they want collectors. Collectors buy one of each car or locomotive in a particular series. Model railroaders tend to stick with one or two road names. Collectors buy anything that they fancy. Model railroaders tend to spend less because less is available for their particular road or era.

Just opinion. No offense intended to Collectors.

I like all the optimism in this thread and I hate to poo poo the idea of Lionel doing 2 rail in O scale but I have to say I seriously doubt it will happen. I've given up on Lionel long ago but once Rich Melvin said that the UP would never restore a Big Boy and now that is happening so I guess anything is possible. If the electronics that they use in S scale are robust enough for O scale then I would imagine the hard part of the R&D is done. How hard is it to insulate the wheels/axles, fix the pilots, and change your electrical pick-ups?

One other thing that is against us is that I have heard many a story of where 2 railers said they would buy a certain product if it were produced and when said item was produced for one reason or another many changed their mind and didn't buy the product leaving the importer or manufacturer with a lot of unsold product and no $$$$ in his bank account. Maybe this is part of the reason? Maybe Lionel just doesn't trust the 2 railer?

I am with the nay-sayers.  The very idea of Lionel making anything for 2-railers is preposterous.  They could have easily molded in kadee coupler mount holes on the new 89' auto rack, but they chose not to.

Just give it up and move on, people...

I am not holding my breathe so to speak on Lionel producing any 2R products in O Scale anytime soon, however, I don't think its as far of a stretch for them to start including Kadee mounting holes, etc... as mentioned on the newer products.  the 3RS guys need them as much as we do.  Also, it would be nice to see a company like NWSL list, market, etc.. 2R upgrade kits for these specific locomotives.  Takes some of the guess work out of it, almost encourages us 2R guys to do the "operation"... The more companies like Lionel see their stuff on 2R and 3RS layouts the more they will consider these kinds of requests in the future. 

How successful do any of you think Lionel would be in offering a 2 rail locomotive to a customer base that is 99+% 3 rail, at price that is almost double what a MTH diesel that is 2 rail costs?

Are you all posting from Seattle?

If you don't have anything available in 2-rail then you shouldn't expect much of their market to be 2-rail.  I bought one NS Heritage SD70Ace and one ES44 as shelf queens until such a time as they are available in brass or if that option disappears I will have to 2-rail them.  For me Lionel makes several things I buy to 2-rail and would get more if I didn't have to go through the time and expense to do so.  There is very little MTH make that interests me at any price.  It's just too clunky for me.

And OBTW,  2-railers are no where near as price conscious as 3-railers.  If Lionel would have made their Auto rack cars decently detailed even in 3-rail and $25-$50 more I would have bought every road and number available and 2-railed them.  As it is, those side panels with the grossly oversize holes make it unacceptable to me. If someone make decent aftermarket panels I may have to reconsider.

Based on my 35+ years as an 0 scaler, I would disagree;  there are price conscious 2 railers, just as there are 3 railers for whom price is not a consideration.  I do believe however that because 2 railers are usually more focused [ by road, era, etc ] many are willing to spend more for a quality model of a given prototype than most [ but not all, of course ] 3 railers, so perhaps we have the same thought but just expressed differently.

Enjoy OSW -- I had a great time at the one I attended [ the airline tickets were a gift ].

Best rgds, SZ

Then we will have to agree to disagree .  3rd Rail also announced at O Scale West that they will be partnering with Boo Rim to produce a high end 4014 Big Boy as will be restored which will cost about $6K when done and I didn't hear one single person call that crazy or anyone interested in one a fool or stupid like you see on the 3-rail side for anything Vision Line.  Or, for that matter just about anything that costs more than $50.

As far as asking Lionel to make a 2 rail model, that seems to me akin to asking Ford to build you a Chevrolet or vice versa. Even if for some strange reason they (Lionel) would decide to do so, I hope you have some time on your hands, because it isn't going to happen right away. If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath....of course you could always hope for the Smithsonian version.

Simon

To consider,  Scott will be doing it as restored with the oil tender.  It can't be done/finished until the real thing is likewise so we're probably looking at being done 5-6 years from now.

But that's the first thing I said when I saw the announcement "Another Big Boy?"  I guess we should start a pool of which will actually show up first Kohs or 3rd Rail.

I don't think it's the same as asking Ford to make a Chevy, a lot of the components for both are made by the same people so...  But I agree and get your drift.  It' more like asking Tesla Motors to make a car with an engine in it.  That will not happen.

Good Day,

Today I wondering if there is any interest in a good representation of the ES44AC (2-Rail) with Lionel Legacy Control and Legacy RailSounds?

Regards,

Swafford

Frank that would be very welcome!