Lionel Items Available at KOHLS.COM, but what's with the crazy prices???

Most of us here are never gonna buy our trains at Kohls.   That's one rare thing we can probably all agree upon here.  

I was just perplexed by the blatantly inflated "Kohl's regular prices" listed on the kohls.com website, which exceed Lionel's already questionably-high MSRP's.    At least we as toy train enthusiasts KNOW the real MSRP for our toy train items.  But it does beg the question how little we know the "real MSRP" of other items like clothing, housewares, etc...  Realistically, if all the big retailers quote these inflated "regular prices" to illustrate an artificially exaggerated discount, then shoppers have know way of knowing for sure if those retailers ever sold ANYTHING at the original regular prices to begin with.  It's all a game of smoke and mirrors, and all the big retailers seem to be doing it across the board. 

David

AMCDave posted:

...

Yes....let's hold everyone's hand all day everyday........

Maybe a career as a Sr Analyst has made me 'smart' in the ways of purchasing and not getting 'taken'........please tell me I am not alone.......please tell me no one is buying that 80 mpg Pikes Peak edition car!!!!!

Dave, you're missing the complete point about business ethics.  If I twist your words to suit the cause... what you're essentially saying anything is "fair game", retailers should be allowed to mislead shoppers any day of the week, and all is fair in love and war.  All of this is true... but it doesn't make it right.

As I said, I'm not out to boil the ocean here.  I just thought it was eye-brow raising to see a Lionel Angela Trotta Christmas caboose with a regular price of $118, when all of us here knows that's significantly higher than Lionel's MSRP for the caboose, and most of us can get the thing for less than $60.  If savy shoppers use their Kohls cash and coupons, they might very well get the price down to what Charlie Ro sells the item for anyway (or something close to it). 

It's a subtle point, but Kohl's never sold ANY of those cabooses for $118.  They just started carrying them last month for the Christmas Holiday, and they're claiming an "on sale" price of $93 or so -- which is not a sale at all.  And if somebody stacks enough Kohls cash and coupons, they might be able to reduce the price even more to $60 which gives the impression they bought it for a "feels good" 50% discount off the Kohls's inflated regular price.  Just imagine if that same shopper stumbles into Charlie Ro's retail store, and wonders why they can't get something for 50% off!!!   It's unnecessarily built on a house of cards.

I agree we're all big boys and girls who know how, when and where to spend our hard-earned dollars.  But I have no problem calling out blatantly false advertising when I see it.  We all should.

David         

 

The average John Q. Public is probably not going to know or care.   I'd bet most wouldn't even know who outfits like Charlie Ro or Trainworld are to compare prices.   They probably wouldn't even check the Lionel website.  Buying train stuff is not their goal for going to Kohl's.   If they buy train stuff there, particularly seasonal stuff, most likely it's an impulse purchase ("Oh look, how cute....") because they're not in the hobby anyway.  Rusty

I agree, Rusty:

But even most "soccer moms" or members of the unknowing public will think those prices are absurd & give the product ZERO consideration-  which only hurts Lionel.  It is the same thing when NASCAR fans, or general pubic members, visit the "Lionel store" in Concord, NC.  I guess Lionel is pretty much forced to sell at list price there so as not to annoy their dealers, but when those prices are seen, I bet that 90% of the visitors think "no way in ....".     

My only input here is that my LHS lists all their items at MSRP ....and to me that worse then what Kohl's is doing...there are no coupons or discounts....I only go there to browse and I run into people all the time looking at the prices and totally getting turned off...and most people flock to their LHS at Christmas time to pick up a gift for someone they know who collects trains or it could be someone who is looking for a train set to buy for their kids...I always tell them they are better off looking online...it's to bad my LHS continues to sell items this way ...and they never ever run a sale...

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

AMCDave posted:

...

Yes....let's hold everyone's hand all day everyday........

Maybe a career as a Sr Analyst has made me 'smart' in the ways of purchasing and not getting 'taken'........please tell me I am not alone.......please tell me no one is buying that 80 mpg Pikes Peak edition car!!!!!

Dave, you're missing the complete point about business ethics.  If I twist your words to suit the cause... what you're essentially saying anything is "fair game", retailers should be allowed to mislead shoppers any day of the week, and all is fair in love and war.  All of this is true... but it doesn't make it right.

 

I agree we're all big boys and girls who know how, when and where to spend our hard-earned dollars.  But I have no problem calling out blatantly false advertising when I see it.  We all should.

David         

No argument about right and wrong......but it's like trying to legislate morality......can't be done.....been tried for hundreds of years....still not working.  If everyone gave 2 minutes thought to how and where they spend their cash......these stores go away. But we have a public with MUCH more cash than common sense.  That's more sad than retailers setting their own prices. Thx

Joeceleb posted:

My only input here is that my LHS lists all their items at MSRP ...there are no coupons or discounts....

...it's to bad my LHS continues to sell items this way ...and they never ever run a sale...

I can only imagine the layer of dust that must be accumulating on the inventory of your LHS!!! 

David

Joeceleb commented on the dust elsewhere.

And this explains why I dropped advertising like a hot potatoe. I chose slightly poorer and a clear conscience.

Like any lie, there isn't an excuse for telling it, or excusing it.

   I don't object to any price, as long as its presented properly. Being exclusive, even with a dollar symbol, does have its place.

They should have used the term "value" and avoided all of this.

Kohl's Cash is as much a scam as Menards 11 percent rebate. Both are marketing ploys designed to get you back in the store, usually to buy something you don't need or want just to use the offer before it expires. Both companies are profitable and didn't get that way by giving away anything!

AMCDave posted:

...  But we have a public with MUCH more cash than common sense.  That's more sad than retailers setting their own prices.   ...

Very true, Dave.  The irony behind all of this is... I don't think folks are turned off so much by retailers setting their own price -- but rather it's the representation to potential buyers that they're getting such a huge (false) discount that raises eyebrows.

I recall back during Christmastime 2007 in NYC, when my wife and I did the city "walking tour".  We visited FAO Schwartz's store in Manhattan (now closed), and I don't think I've ever seen Lionel trains "merchandised" more effectively.  The display was superb!  This was the year that Lionel had delivered both the JLC Allegheny w/TMCC and the JLC GG1's w/TMCC.  And FAO had about two dozen of each locomotive stacked very creatively throughout the "toy train department".  Most small LHS's were lucky to have just one of each in stock!  So seeing two dozen of each locomotive on display like that just made me smile.

Back in those days, the Allegheny had a $1,700 MSRP and the GG1 carried a $900 MSRP.  But FAO had the Allegheny priced at $2,400 and the GG1's (in two Pennsy color schemes) priced at $1,200.  We knew they were above MSRP, but that's what FAO was actually selling them for.  And I just smiled and thought, "Only at FAO Schwartz in NYC would stockbrokers and investment bankers pay those prices just because they could."  Who knows how many -- if any -- FAO sold at those prices.   But there were clearly no signs featuring "markdowns" from those high prices.  If you wanted to buy them at FAO, you paid the asking price... or as in my case, I just smiled and chalked it up to expensive NYC prices and enjoyed the entertainment value in it all.

What makes today's marketing strategies more questionable is the fact big retailers -- in this case, kohls.com selling Lionel trains -- are selling the "representation" that shoppers are getting such a huge discount off prices at which the store never intended selling the train item in the first place.  Some may argue it's a subtle difference not worth mentioning... but I think it's a very real distinction -- enough so that nobody ever bothered to challenge FAO back in the day, whereas today the "Big 4" retailers are being taken to task for this type of pricing practice.

David

Tom Blevins posted:

Kohl's Cash is as much a scam as Menards 11 percent rebate. Both are marketing ploys designed to get you back in the store, usually to buy something you don't need or want just to use the offer before it expires. Both companies are profitable and didn't get that way by giving away anything!

Precisely... and what makes it all work is the MSRP for items in their inventory is a moving target -- largely unknown to the consumer.  Case in point...  When have you ever seen a catalog that lists the MSRP for mens clothing?    For decades, we just took for granted that the retailer listed the accurate MSRP and sold at a discount to draw shoppers to the store.  Today, it's more like the wild, wild West out there.  And retailers use whatever tactics they can to snag buyers -- even if the tactics employ lots of smoke and mirrors. 

David

IIRC, many years ago Sears Canada fell afoul of the law with their pricing.

Yes, they can charge whatever they want . . . .

BUT, what they can not legally do is claim something like 30% off "regular price" unless they have actually listed the widget in question at that price in the past. Again, IIRC, they were fined in Canada for the practice.

Incidentally, absurd prices on amazon seem shockingly common. I swear I encounter them daily! Here's a listing for a few small grain of wheat LEDs at $10,000 right now.

Amazon.ca listing.

I read these things happen when stupid computer price setting software runs amok and starts trying to adjust the price according to the competion.  There was an infamous case of a book on flies that was listed at $27,000,000 (that's MILLION) as a result of this kind of software. It's what we have to look forward to as AI becomes more common in the marketplace. The Kohl price may NOT have been set by a human being at all!

• banjoflyer posted:

  Terry Danks posted:

  Actually Kohls seem positive amateurs when it comes to jacked prices.

  Try this Harry Potter G-gauge set.

  Amazon is chock-a-block FULL of absolutely, bizarrely  CRAZY prices. I never understood it!

  Took me all of 10 seconds to find one of these nutty listings!

  Yes, yes, yes.....but those are Canadian  dollars! When converted to US $$ it only costs $11,377.20 for the G-gauge set! Now isn't that better?

  Mark

  I don't care who y'are.....that there's funny! Almost as amusing as comparing prices on identical items from amazon.ca vs. amazon.com .

  A certain manufacturer's passenger car with a hobo sitting on top is about three times the price on the Canadian site. Then there was a $1700.00 Thomas set......... continued laughter.......

Matt Makens posted:

Yeah, I was listening to all the holiday adds on the radio and I couldn't help but notice how complicated these companies have made it to buy things at their stores and save money. Points, store cash, coupons and coupons and special offers. JEEZ, you need a PHD in marketing just to figure all this stuff out. Why can you jsut have a price and then a sale

"you need a PHD..."

Could not agree more, all the females in my family could easily pass a commercial buying exam if required; it might be a female thing, but they have this game figured out. When it comes to train buying and selling, I use my Lionel postwar PHD knowledge to full extent, maybe that is a man thing.

A fun posting, thank-you Rocky...

I dislike Kohl's and its retail model.  My wife gets these coupons and then they have Kohl's cash.  It's such a manipulative racket and the stuff in the stores is, generally speaking, junky.  My wife used to buy the kids stuff there and after seeing how it self-destructed, I talked her out of going in there.  Now we tend to spend more on the kids' clothes, but buying good quality means my younger son often gets use out of what we bought my older son.  So the higher initial cost of the better quality item has, in my judgment, been offset by the fact that it lasts a lot longer.  Disposable good and recreational shopping -- both of which are induced by the Kohl's retail model -- is bad for the average consumer's financials and it also does great damage to the environment.

As far them selling trains, I understand the hobby is a niche hobby but you don't need to be a retail genius to do a couple of google or amazon searches and discover that the stuff they are selling is over-priced.  I am not worried about the impact it will have on the train hobby.  The real issues for "adaption" for this hobby are still cost (even at a competitive price) and skill.  When kids come over the house to play with my sons, they always love the trains.  Parents ask what they cost for a nice starter set.  They are generally surprised at the cost.  Then there is the need to actually be able to do some assembly and troubleshooting and it falls int the "not worth it" category for many.  I think Lionel has done a very good job of addressing the adaption issues with the LC and LC+ locomotives (if you cannot operate one, you are a certified moron), and with the plug and play feature for fast track.  MTH's starter sets are also fairly foolproof to set up.  But the cost of either is a lot for an average family.

Ray Lombardo posted:

I dislike Kohl's and its retail model.  My wife gets these coupons and then they have Kohl's cash.  It's such a manipulative racket and the stuff in the stores is, generally speaking, junky.  My wife used to buy the kids stuff there and after seeing how it self-destructed, I talked her out of going in there.  Now we tend to spend more on the kids' clothes, but buying good quality means my younger son often gets use out of what we bought my older son.  So the higher initial cost of the better quality item has, in my judgment, been offset by the fact that it lasts a lot longer.  Disposable good and recreational shopping -- both of which are induced by the Kohl's retail model -- is bad for the average consumer's financials and it also does great damage to the environment.

 

Obviously, the masses think otherwise, else Kohl's wouldn't remain in business. 

Went to a Kohl's probably 10 years ago or so, mainly because I was at the strip mall it was in.  Browsed the store, bought a pizza stone they had on sale. (Or was it?  Don't know, don't care.  I still got the stone, works just fine.)  Saw no compelling reason to shop there again verses my "usual suspects."

Either way, when I think about buying trains, Kohl's (or any other department store) isn't even close to the list.

Rusty

All retail department stores will be dead and gone within 10 years.  Like records to cassettes to CDs to digital downloads.  Technology will eventually win out. BigRail 

BigRail posted:

All retail department stores will be dead and gone within 10 years.  Like records to cassettes to CDs to digital downloads.  Technology will eventually win out. BigRail 

I tell my grandkids that all the time.......going to the store will be a memory they talk about when they are 30......

BigRail posted:

All retail department stores will be dead and gone within 10 years.  Like records to cassettes to CDs to digital downloads.  Technology will eventually win out. BigRail 

Technology is fine, but not always the answer.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've created..."  -Darth Vader

Rusty

Don't forget the S in MSRP is "Suggested".

And brick & mortar stores are not going away.  They are changing and in some cases quite radically. 

Farmer_Bill posted:

Don't forget the S in MSRP is "Suggested".

And brick & mortar stores are not going away.  They are changing and in some cases quite radically. 

 

Brick and mortar is done. Think about going into a busy train station in 1940 and telling someone 99.9% of them will be gone or abandoned in 25 years......they'd laugh at you and say you're a nut!!!!

Change is the only constant.....it will happen to retail....is now.  

Eventually it will be the "Amazon.com Thanksgiving Day Parade" with floats sponsored by Google, Facebook and Twitter.  Sad but probably pretty close to true in the not to distant future.  BigRail 

I'm sure everyone thinks they have some insight into the future of retail. But they don't.

Clothes have to be tried on. Washers and driers have to be examined. Perfumes and colognes have to be sampled. Essentials need to be picked up quickly and conveniently. Etc.

Retail stores will evolve, not go away. Technology will be part of those stores, not working against them.

Sears and JCPenneys both have Lionel trains on their websites at outrageously high prices: boxcars starting at $100 and up.

Seems they provided by after market vendors that sell through their catalog sites. Sears doesn't set the price, but they probably don't sell many trains either.

http://www.sears.com/lionel-tr...o=1&blockType=G1

Sean

Regarding the state of retail:

Remember not more than a few years ago, the new JCPenney CEO abolished sales and had something akin to "everyday low pricing."  They failed miserably.  The retail customer *must* have a sale or coupon, or K-cash, or whatever to entice them into the stores.  We've become a nation of idiots who can no longer do a simple critical analysis of *anything*...

And about the future of brick and mortar?  Remember (they may still be around...) Service Merchandise?  You'd go to their "showroom" to see, fell, examine their products, then had to fill out a form to actually receive the item from the back?  Doesn't take much effort to think of an Amazon showroom. Scan the item with your phone camera, and it automatically loads it into your amazon cart. Complete the sale when you're ready.

Would have to be one helluva stadium-sized showroom, though!  ;-)

Jim R. posted:

I'm sure everyone thinks they have some insight into the future of retail. But they don't.

Clothes have to be tried on. Washers and driers have to be examined. Perfumes and colognes have to be sampled. Essentials need to be picked up quickly and conveniently. Etc.

Retail stores will evolve, not go away. Technology will be part of those stores, not working against them.

We will see........If anyone knew 100% correct they'd invest in THAT future. 

But in my 30 years as a Analyst working for a top 5 worldwide bank I have more than average insight. The cost of physical plant (store), water, electricity, employees and their associated cost (rising everyday) security and theft by customers and employees will at some point take it's toll.

Someone will create a WalMart online (Amazon is close but not there yet) that gets you your order overnight....it warehouse will run in the cold and dark with automated order pickers. They will have ZERO loss from theft, will not have a huge employee base that takes smoke breaks, lunch and sick days. Will not have to provide all the things required, by law, if you serve the public. They will undercut the box stores by 50% at the start until they get everyone switched over to there way....then increase their profits. $32 BILLION walked out the door unpaid last year....higher this year. How can that compete with someone with zero loss and a handful of employees at the retail level (you will still have back office staff). 

Just IMHO ONLY!

I can just see realizing I'm on my last roll of toilet paper, having to order it online and pay for super-duper expedited delivery by drone...

Rusty

But David, it's KOHLS!

Oh that's right Kohl's is not all that.

Never mind!  

Service Merchandise was the 1st warehouse store I recall. They failed but the concept is as valid as AMCs predictions become more real, low overhead.   Support your local.....store.

Interesting word "store".... storage...it has to happen somewhere unless we can perfect creation on demand like..I don't know....3d printing?

The question I ask, and it is inevitable, is with machines doing literally all the work, and no stores, how does the capitalist system stay in place? I won't type that answer, I'll just continue to buy from the little guy as often as I can vs saving every dime I can to win at the rat lemming race. Saving those dimes isn't helping your kids. Look at Detroit, Youngstown, and the other industrial cities we've destroyed in the name of saving a dime.  I.e. We are stupid, and sleeping, imo, bound to fail as long as we nap. I think it will last till I'm dead anyhow.