Lionel "Madison" cars - dies were destroyed?

They can always borrow the Williams dies.

I believe that the commonly accepted wisdom (not sure who actually knew it and told the story) was that they were destroyed. Whether the term "inadvertently" applies is anyone's guess, but always makes for a much more interesting mystery.  It may have just been an ill-advised business decision. It's hard to believe that there was only one set of dies.  So, chances are it wasn't "inadvertent" after all, but a conscious act.

There are so many such mysteries, urban legends and apocryphal stories concerning Lionel. The ones that attempt to unravel the relationship between Madison Hardware and the Lionel company just seem never to end and get more bizarre with each new telling.

History is filed with "unfortunate" destruction of items both large and small that subsequently became the subjects of "oh shoot, why did they do that?" moments.  In the RR world, think the scrapping of the last NYC Hudson, or the vandalizing of Penn Station in NY.

There is a difference between the dies use to mold Bakelite and dies that are used for injection molding. I think it is safe to say that at some point in the late 1940s Lionel made the determination that they would never again make large passenger car bodies out of Bakelite.  And they never did. We have no way of knowing whether the Bakelite dies could have been converted to injection molding dies or not.  It was probably this question that resulted in the dies being scrapped.

Interesting. Thank you.

The Bakelite car bodies produced factory errors in excess of 25-30% of each production run.  What they couldn’t possibly know at the time was that a simple change to the input gate would have allowed use of more modern ABS type plastics.  The molds went into the Korean War scrap piles.  I believe the truck and vestibule molds were retained.

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

The Bakelite car bodies produced factory errors in excess of 25-30% of each production run.  What they couldn’t possibly know at the time was that a simple change to the input gate would have allowed use of more modern ABS type plastics.  The molds went into the Korean War scrap piles.  I believe the truck and vestibule molds were retained.

Jon

Wow! That would explain why they chucked them.

What Mr. Bloom stated about the ongoing misinformation about the relationship between Lionel and the Madison Hardware "twins" is also a favorite topic for discussion on this forum. It definitely has a life of its own, but makes for interesting fantasy reading! The reality is we will likely never know the true story as the main characters are long gone.

For what it is worth, the Williams first 'Madison' cars were Bakelite and later were molded in ABS.

@BenLMaggi posted:

Wow! That would explain why they chucked them.

Actually LTI redid the original bakelite heavyweights in the mid 90s.   LTI also produced a bakelite baggage car as a separate item ( very hard to find) that was PW cataloged but never made.   LTI also made a 5 car painted Southern Pacific Bakelite heavyweight set.

@BenLMaggi posted:

Wow! That would explain why they chucked them.

A more likely scenario is that in conjunction with the scrap issue, they were worn/damaged and needed a lot of work, and were scrapped instead as they were moving to extruded aluminum for their large passenger cars which were under development.

"Actually LTI redid the original bakelite heavyweights in the mid 90s.   LTI also produced a bakelite baggage car as a separate item ( very hard to find) that was PW cataloged but never made.   LTI also made a 5 car painted Southern Pacific Bakelite heavyweight set."

I have those LTI bakelite SP Madison cars inc. baggage car and, at the time, they were hailed as the last bakelite cars Lionel would ever make. Don't know if that is true or not, but I liked the set, the GS=2 and the Madison cars. Mark

I am a great fan of the "Madison" cars  I have my original 3 from my Father/Uncle with a BLACK 2332   and a set of 90s era Lionel Lines to run with a 783.  Love the cars.  I am trying to take restorable Lionel and Williams  (old kit cars/ National Limited Cars)  Madison cars and redo them to run with my 226e.  THe tough part is finding the pre-war 6 wheel trucks.  I wish Williams had made different window arrangements including paired window coach PRR style  single window coach and modernised coaches with large single windows and a real dining car adding vents to the roof.

Ed Samsen

Very interesting fellas. Thank you 😊

I could have seen the Madison Cars in Pullman Green with a black roof   Visualize that as the premium O Gauge set in 1940 and 1941 pulled by a 226e and in O-72 pulled by a 763.  Postwar think of Tuscan red with black roof pulled by a 2332 GG1  and Pullman Green again pulled by a 1950 773.

For alternate body styles, one needed to build the Walthers short passenger cars which made a fair match to Madison cars including RPO, Baggage, Combine, Coach. Diner and open platform observation car.  Too bad Walthers or somebody else tooled up a set of short passenger cars matching Madison Cars out of resin castings akin to American Standard and the full length O Scale 20th century limited  imagine that behind a 700e  or 1990 era700 or even a 777 Commodore Vanderbilt.

Ed Samsen

Madison Hardware did offer Madison cars in green. I think it was late 1940s. I have seen green Madison cars, but I do not know if it was the Madison Hardware cars or the owners repaint.

You can find a Madison ad offering the green Madison's for sale in the May 1965 Model Railroader. I no longer have the magazine but remember the ad.

I recall seeing a set of green Madison cars in Madison Hardware in the late 70s to mid 80s.  I have a feeling they were a Madison Hardware "special"  just like the Scale Hudson Tenders they had

Ed Samsen

this appeared couple years ago

PROTOTYPE GREEN MADISON CARS - TWO PULLMANS, ONE OBSERVATION - FROM THE LIFT BRIDGE (JOE BONANNO COLLECTION - STATEMENT OF ACQUISITION AND HISTORY BY CURRENT OWNER DON SHAW) (train-station.com)

$50000?  Really?

There was a short time period that Willams did a set of Madison cars that were lettered wkth Lionel Lines.  I think it was part of the Golden Memories line they did. I think is was breif as the were lettered LL and I would think either they did it and were not allowed or only had approval for a short run.  I have 3 coaches, they may have done more but I don't recall.

For $50,000.00 ? And the C-8 rating Like New is also a stretch. The Lionel Lines printing is almost vanished plus there appear to be scratches, tarnish , light rust and paint fading. Yeh, just “like new”….

forget where this photo is from, possibly of the Williams models referenced above or maybe a custom job. Lettering might be decals…

50K is a bit much.  We have always cherished the late 40's Madison's.  They were Dad's, not considered toys, and he only had two of them.  I found the 3rd and made his day decades later.  To keep them in the family, I presented those 3 plus a new Sager Place to my nephew with a 1946 Berkshire (smoke bulb etc).  And more recently I acquired a Century Club Berkshire and added the five 1990's re-issued Madison's which includes the Baggage Car.   All in boxes, what the heck...but soon...one day...