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I've just diagnosed a very strange and annoying problem with my Lionel Milwaukee Road S3, and I'm wondering if anyone else has run into the same thing. My Lionel S3 4-8-4 runs fine at home, on 0-72 tubular track. However, it derails on much wider curves on the Gargraves track at our museum. After a lot of work diagnosing the situation, we figured out that the problem was the third (center) pick-up roller. The center roller on the locomotive was slipping off the knife-edge center rail when the engine went around a curve, and the engine would lurch as the roller jumped back onto the center rail coming out of the curve, or derail if it didn't make it. This was happening on curves substantially wider than 0-72. The edge of the Lionel roller is quite sharp, which makes it harder for the roller to get back on the center rail as the curve straightens out. The roller is also narrow at 0.38". For comparison, a Weaver roller is 0.46", and a 3rd Rail roller is over half an inch and has an oval shape that eliminates the sharp edge. MTH rollers are about the size of Lionel. 

 

The solution is obvious. Either replace the roller with a 3rd Rail part, or remove it altogether. However, there's a problem with removing or replacing the roller. To remove or replace the roller assembly, you need to take off the boiler. Now, according to Lionel, removing the boiler for any reason whatsoever voids the warranty - and the last thing I want to do is void the warranty on a high-end Lionel product. So, it's a Catch-22. I bought this engine to run it at the museum, but I can't run it at the museum unless I take it apart, which voids the warranty.

 

I think what I may do is get rid of the center roller by cutting off the hinge pin. That will leave the bracket in place, eliminating the need to remove the boiler.  I can't imagine why a Northern even needs a third roller; I've got lots of other big steamers and they all seem to work fine with two. Maybe the distance between the rollers is such that they hit the gaps on a particular switch. 

 

Has anyone else run into this problem running the S3 on Gargraves track? That layout has been running for over ten years and we've never had an engine derail in this fashion before. I've never seen another steamer with a roller in the middle like that, and I have three or four Northerns, a 4-12-2, and some large articulated engines. I have no idea why Lionel thought the third pickup was necessary, but it seems they didn't bother to test it on Gargraves track. 

 

That's about it for me with Lionel. I've made about one major Lionel purchase per year for the past four or five years, and I've had some kind of annoyance with each and every one of them. No DOA's, just silly nonsense like this, and the oversize flanges on some of the diesels,  the circus-wagon paint job on the Hiawatha, etc. etc. I feel like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football. Every time I anticipate something really good from Lionel, there's a disappointment. Enough.

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Southwest Hi,

Although I have a mental picture of what you're describing, a photo of the roller pick-ups would really help here. Are the other two rollers the same 0.38" width as the center roller, or are they wider? If they're wider, maybe the center roller is narrow on purpose to avoid shorting on the curved portions of switches. In any event, before you cut any pins, see if you can use a plastic wire tie or some other devious method to simply raise the center pick-up off the rail, then see if it still runs OK around the museum layout. Sorry I can't provide more detailed advice, but as one Milwaukee guy to another I wish ya luck. C'mon back and tell us if you find a solution. You'd think Lionel could have used a Hudson or Berkshire pick-up assembly on the S3. Guess that would've been too easy, LOL.  

First, I am having trouble picturing the "sharp" center rail you are talking about. All the Gargraves track I have seen has a center rail the same size as the running rails.

 

As far as the roller is concerned, before I did anything I might regret, try an find a Service station. They might be able to replace the roller with a wider one.

 

Al

I'm wondering if there was a kink or a very sharp curve in the track.  I've been running my S-3 for several months now on Gargraves track and never experienced that problem.  As for me, I like the idea of three rollers and have added rollers to several of my other engines and powered cars.  Haven't had the chance to look under my engine but I'm wondering if a wider roller could be installed?

 

As far as good operation, this engine is really the very best of about 40 different engines.  There have been times when I have started the engine around my complicated, multi level layout with numerous switches, pulling a 15 car freight train and left it running while I had to run upstairs.  Coming back down some 20 or 30 minutes later, the train was still running happily along at the same speed it was set, uphill and down, no problems, no sweat.  Can't do that with a number of other engines I own.  I think that Lionel did a really great job in designing this engine.

 

Paul Fischer

The "knife edge" is a piece of rhetorical overkill, but the square profile and sharp corners on the center rail mean the roller is either on or off, while tubular track lets it slip partway off and come back without a problem. The middle roller is well centered, and in fact it will come off the center rail and derail the engine going in either direction. I could undoubtedly install a 3rd Rail tapered roller if I could get hold of one; I may check with Scott Mann and see if he has them for sale. I tried to round off the edge on the roller a little bit with a file, but after closely observing the derailments I don't think it will be possible to modify the original Lionel roller so it will climb back. 

 

I am thinking now that some of the track at our museum may be out of gauge. Constant pressure from long-wheelbase engines may have pushed the rails farther apart, and I can see in at least one place where the center rail seems to be off center. Next time I get to the museum I'm going to take a digital caliper and a new piece of flex track. I will measure the distance between the outer rails and the center rail at the points where the S3 has derailed, then bend the flex track to the same curve and compare the measurements. Since others are running  the Lionel S3 on Gargraves track with no problems, and the locomotive consistently derails at specific spots on the layout, that seems like the logical next step. I'll post the results.

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