I just received a handsome N&W coach from a nice Forum member who was selling it to keep the other car in a two car set. It is brand new and I noticed that the ladders are mounted on the wrong ends on the car - one on each side. His note says 2-car set 19027210 but I can't locate it on Lionel's site. Anyone else have ladders mounted this way?
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Posting links here as none of the picture are mine.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...icture.aspx?id=10432
Yes, it's wrong, but how wrong.
One of the chrome grabs should be vertical and one horizontal. The stirrup on the model is WAY more pronounced than on the real car:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=4416892
http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=4932388
As far as modelling it as it exists with the steps being down permanently, I would imagine that would have required a tooling change which would not be worth the effort. There should only be 2 grabs, not 3 however.
I would have never caught that in a million years but at first glance I noted the grab bar on the far left is mounted a little higher than the other two and the window in the middle has the inside frame mounted crooked. It's a sickness, I'll pick up pictures mounted on the wall that are 1/32 " out of level. I guess I could have worse hang-ups. JP
I don't think the ladder is on the wrong end.. Have you ever entered a passenger car from a ladder? The cars are stopped at a platform for passenger loading and unloading. I remember as a kid the conductor placing a step stool if the last step to the platform was to great. I also remember railroad yard workers standing on a ladder and holding grab bars at the rear of trains during coupling operations.
@Dan Kenny posted:I don't think the ladder is on the wrong end.. Have you ever entered a passenger car from a ladder? The cars are stopped at a platform for passenger loading and unloading. I remember as a kid the conductor placing a step stool if the last step to the platform was to great. I also remember railroad yard workers standing on a ladder and holding grab bars at the rear of trains during coupling operations.
Your statement is pretty much correct, i.e. the "ladder" is NOT on the wrong end. Being a streamlined passenger car, when the door and fold-down "trap" assembly, which has the steps for the passengers, is opened, THAT is how passengers enter that end of the car. The hand grabs (grab irons) with the steps at the other end of the car, are for a Brakeman's use when switching that car.
@Hot Water posted:Your statement is pretty much correct, i.e. the "ladder" is NOT on the wrong end. Being a streamlined passenger car, when the door and fold-down "trap" assembly, which has the steps for the passengers, is opened, THAT is how passengers enter that end of the car. The hand grabs (grab irons) with the steps at the other end of the car, are for a Brakeman's use when switching that car.
I would agree. Some handrails are simply for hanging from while switching.
What really sticks out for me is the apparent lack of steps at the vestibule end. Usually the fold-down steps hang down from the car sill a bit. Maybe I'm wrong on this as most prototype photos I've seen of these cars have the stairs in the open position.
As an aside when I rode NJ Transit one of my fond memories was the trainman opening the floor hatch and lowering the stairs on the streamlined cars as we approached my stop in Little Silver that did not have high level platforms at the time.
not the wrong side!! Good catch.
As well as Jonathan’s memories, I recall boarding the Phoebe Snow, or any of the Lackawanna’s streamlined cars in Hoboken, by stepping on the stairs from the high platform, but when we arrived in East Stroudsburg, the conductor would lift the trap, then descend with his step stool, and help us down to the ground level.
@GG1 4877 posted:What really sticks out for me is the apparent lack of steps at the vestibule end. Usually the fold-down steps hang down from the car sill a bit. Maybe I'm wrong on this as most prototype photos I've seen of these cars have the stairs in the open position.
As an aside when I rode NJ Transit one of my fond memories was the trainman opening the floor hatch and lowering the stairs on the streamlined cars as we approached my stop in Little Silver that did not have high level platforms at the time.
If you Google the history of WATX 539, you find that once AmRoad took over intercity passenger service N&W placed the car in commuter service. Some sites suggest that when it was placed in commuter service the the vestibule steps were permanently fixed in the down position. Based on all of the modern photographs of that car the steps are always down. In a normal intercity car the steps fold up and present a flush exterior not unlike that of the model.
Steve
"I see" said the blind man! LOL
Thanks fellas, very enlightening responses. :-)
Great photos too! Passenger cars are so interesting. Must confess my ignorance to many of their details...
Anyone making 3D printed steps to retrofit these cars perchance? My NS Theater car has the molded in stairs in the closed position. Look a lot better than the 'bare' underside.
@L & N posted:If you Google the history of WATX 539, you find that once AmRoad took over intercity passenger service N&W placed the car in commuter service. Some sites suggest that when it was placed in commuter service the the vestibule steps were permanently fixed in the down position. Based on all of the modern photographs of that car the steps are always down. In a normal intercity car the steps fold up and present a flush exterior not unlike that of the model.
Steve
I understand that the steps appear to have been permanently fixed in the down position. Research indicates that this happened prior to Amtrak looking at historical photos with entire trains with the steps in the down position. However, when you look at this photo of the prototype, the sill line for the bottom of the steps still extends below the sill line of the body of the coach were they in the up position.
Also see these photos:
Norfolk Southern Coaches - note that this shows the same grab bar configuration as shown on the vestibule end of Lionel's car.
This Walthers HO Norfolk & Western Coach most clearly shows what I am talking about as all the skirting has been removed. Note how the vestibule stairs are below this main sill line.
I also simply wanted to add that I think these are really nice cars overall. I like the silver window frames in the openings and overall, Lionel's 21" cars are fairly decent representations of scale cars. If I got the bug to put some prototypical cars behind my Williams brass J, I would consider these if the price were right.
If I had these cars, I would consider purchasing some steps and adding them to the car with a strip of styrene on either side to match the prototype. It wouldn't be much work and would make these cars really stand out. Keil Line makes some steps that would work pretty well.
The UP coach that AlanRail posted has the exact same configuration as your car. Looks like Lionel chose generic tooling for these cars. Many makers do this. What's the deal with the different reds? Did NW actually use to different colors?
I have a Williams dome car with the dome on the wrong end. Apparently during one run, the mold was assembled incorrectly and it wasn't caught in time and they all went to market. I guess most folks didn't know any better. I contacted Williams and Larry H. confirmed and explained the situation.
Is the car Sam posted sold as an Excursion or period car? I guess it depends on the era you model whether the steps should be down or not. Not a big deal to add them.
Pete
@c.sam posted:"I see" said the blind man! LOL
(As he picked up his hammer and saw)
Anyone making 3D printed steps to retrofit these cars perchance?
IS that a challenge?
not sure what I'd be printing, do you have a sketch or picture???
how would stairs fit into the place below the door?
@Mike D posted:I have a Williams dome car with the dome on the wrong end. Apparently during one run, the mold was assembled incorrectly and it wasn't caught in time and they all went to market. I guess most folks didn't know any better. I contacted Williams and Larry H. confirmed and explained the situation.
That's why we never purchased the Williams Streamlined cars. Couldn't believe that they didn't catch that error.
A challenge? LOL. Not really Alan. Jonathan above mentions a supplier of steps and other accessories that might be available. I will get with you after the weekend about that fuel tank for my Williams L&N E7s
@Hot Water posted:Your statement is pretty much correct, i.e. the "ladder" is NOT on the wrong end. Being a streamlined passenger car, when the door and fold-down "trap" assembly, which has the steps for the passengers, is opened, THAT is how passengers enter that end of the car. The hand grabs (grab irons) with the steps at the other end of the car, are for a Brakeman's use when switching that car.
Looks like we should see steps on the car.
I remember riding cars on the PRR that had both types of steps, "lowerable" and permanently placed. When the "lowerable" steps were raised for travel, they collapsed to "complete" the floor between the aisle and the car door. There was no evidence of the steps below the car line. When the door was closed on the permanent steps, a heavy steel or aluminum plate was dropped down over the steps to again complete the floor. Conductors would use the small metal step stools at any station where they were needed.
I would guess they operated like this on most railroads.
Chuck
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