Lionel O31 Switch Issue

That's a classic issue with those switches.  I'll tell you how I fix mine.

I first file the edge of the plastic swivel rail to taper toward the rail.  Next I take a Dremel with a grinding wheel and grind away a bit of the mating rail so that swivel rail is slightly recessed into the rail when it's switched to the "out" direction.

The switches aren't the highest quality switches, but as you say, they're useful for stuff like yards.  You can lop the lantern holder off them and they're very compact, so you can get closer spacing between tracks.

Take a look at how the equipment tracks through with regard to the guard rails opposite the swivel rail - it may need to be extended or raised.

Rob, for my switches, what I described was the fix, the blunt end of the swivel rail catches the flange and causes the issue.

Gunrunnerjohn,

Thank you for the help.  However, I am not sure what you mean by the "swivel rail."  Are you talking about what I call the "frog"?  Also not 100% sure as to which guard rails you are referring.  Thank you again. 

The swivel rail is the movable part of the switch, the frog is the "y" where the rails meet, at least that's how I've always viewed them.

Many times with certain equipment, with variations in wheel gauge, the guard rails(pictured below and left of "Taper this blunt edge") fail to be effective enough.  This results in the lead wheels picking the swivel rail. 

Rob, that's why I not only tapered it, but ground a small depression in the left hand rail.  This was effective for my use, though I can see what you're talking about, I guess I just didn't have the equipment mix to be the issue.

Thanks both for the terminology education as well as the help with the switch.  I'll give it a shot.  Much appreciated.

I contacted Williams repair department about the 6-23010 & 6-23011 O gauge remote switches, their claim is that these switches don't play well with Williams engines. The Williams engines were the only ones that the Lionel switches # 6-23010 & 23011 acted up with. The problem I had was that the selector would go into a constant flipping motion when a Williams engine got within two track sections of the Lionel 6-23010 and no other brand did that! So it was not a fiber pin problem like somebody on another forum tried to suggest, you must experiance this problem to believe it!

Lionel repair department claimed they knew of no problem with the switch.

Williams claims there is a design flaw with these switches, and I believe it! After having one of my 6-23010 switches just up and quit working electrically for no reason, there was power to the switch at the terminals(measured with a multimeter) but nothing happened when the remote control was operated, even jumped the terminals with screwdriver to test if the remote was bad, same thing happened; nothing. I followed the Lionel instruction manual and never ran them above 14 volts, so I don't know what happened.

I would say to use the old reliable 022 switches from the postwar era or Gargraves or Ross Custom switches with Williams engines.

Lee Fritz

Here is another factor to consider. If you have a long wheelbase loco approaching the switch on a tight curve, it is more likely to have issues with following the curved leg because the leading flange is attacking the railhead all the way into the switch. Compare the approaches for switch #1 and #2.

The modifications that gunrunner shows above are right on; I've done similar on some switches in other gauges that had overly blunt switch points.

With those tracking problems it's also a good idea to check your trains for proper wheel gauge, true wheels and smooth flanges. 

My advice for running Williams is not to use current production Lionel switches in O gauge tubular track. Instead use; K-Line, Gargraves or Ross.

With MTH don't use Gargraves switches at all, with my experiance it equates to instant derailment at switch.

Lee Fritz

Ace and Lee,

Thanks for the input.  The issue only effects one of the four of this style switch that I own.  That being said, all my others are Lionel O22, O72, and K-Line 042 and I have never seen an issue like this.  To Ace's point about equipment, that was my first thought too when it happened on my father's late 1940s turbines.  I even replaced the front axle on one of them because it was a touch bent.  But then it happened on a newish Williams Alco.  So I have good confidence it is the switch and not the equipment.  The F3s will track through although my experience with the Lionel F3s is that they won't derail short of you leaving a screwdriver on the track.  Even then they'll run and push it along until there is a short circuit.

I'm currently converting my Williams scale GG-1 to TMCC, and in installing the electrocouplers, I was checking on the track to see if the limited travel in the pilots would be a problem.  I notice that the wheels and axles on the front and trailing trucks are an unusual design, and there's lots of "slop" in the wheels.  They're individually loose on the axle, and can move a significant distance back and forth.  I wonder if this kind of design might exacerbate the switch issue?

I have had similar issues with the six or so of these switches on my layout. John's fix works well for me also.

The most problematic engines are those with 2 wheel pilot trucks it seems. They like to "pick the points" as I have heard it described.

Rod

John is right on with his fix, thats what I did with all 6 of mine,,,,,,,,,works like a charm!!

These are not LIONELS best idea, just my opinion.

Rod

I'm not sure you can ever make these bulletproof, but you can certainly improve them a bunch over the stock configuration.  A couple of mine would derail almost every locomotive that came through them before I started altering them.

The shame of it all is they're a nice compact switch, especially if you remove the lantern holder, and really have a unique place for stuff like yards.

Quite true.  Last night I was playing with the switch some more and my 2-8-4 berkshire also did the same thing.  I'll give John's approach a shot and I'll also probably pick up an O22 switch as well.

If you have room, the 022 switch is the answer.  I got these to do a yard that will have switches in close quarters, and there's no way to fit the 022 into it.  Also, with the short curve section, you can space the tracks closer than you can with the 022 switches.

That is what I am going to do, based on your advice.  I'll have to move my dad's post-war standing block signal but I can do that and make the necessary room. 

It's funny, that's the same reason these appealed to me when I purchased them originally.  But when I built this layout, which is fairly compact, for whatever reason I have a lot more right hand switches than left hand, and these were in the left hand inventory.  But I will modify it as you suggest and hold on to it for future use. 

RL NYC,

   I agree with Lee Fritz, IMO get rid of the newer Lionel Switches and replace them with the original Lionel 711, early 072 or 022 switches that repeatedly work correctly, or if you are only running modern trains, use the Ross switches.  If you go with the old Lionel switches install LED lights in both the switches and the controllers, to help keep the power draw for operating them down. 

Good luck with your layout.

PCRR/Dave

To me, anything after 1969 is "modern."  ;-) 

Joking around aside, I have a good mix of old and new.   We run it all -- we don't have any display case queens, so the O22 is the way to go. 

And I like the LED idea -- very clever.  Hadn't thought of that.  Many thanks, again.

When only certain locos derail on a particular type of switch, I wouldn't be blaming the switch entirely.

I have one of the 3010/3011 switches from the 1990's and the great thing about them (as already mentioned) is the shorter configuration with adapter pieces. The only problem I had with my 3010 switch was a long-wheelbase Bigboy tender shorting wheels onto the center-rail blob between the switch points, when going through the curved leg. I stopped that with black electrical tape in strategic places. I have since provided wider radii to run my Bigboy on.

One of the big problems with O gauge through the decades is a lack of precise rail and wheel standards like we have in HO. Also, "traditional" O-gauge with O27 and O31 curves are very very sharp curves in proportion to the "scale" and various liberties have been taken with wheel and rail standards to accomodate that IMO.

I cut down one O22 switch so I could make a parallel siding track without extreme S-curves and excessive track spacing, but that was a hassle!

When all the engines by one certain company make a switch go crazy, I start to look at the cause of the problem, and see what might be wrong. Also the Lionel 6-23010 was acting like a Christmas tree blinking light, switch lantern light going on & off every few seconds. Then one day it finally lost power inside somehow and refused to work electrically and that was when I started pulling all five of the Lionel switches off the layout.

The older 022 switches like I mentioned before never let me down, except for occasional cleaning of contact points.

Lee Fritz

John;

The classic 022 and the manual version 042 switches can be cut down and used for yard work effectively.

You basically remove a 15 degree section of the curved rail.

This reduces the yard track spacing to 5" C-C and works much better.

Here is a pic of a yard done with 042's that are cut down this way:

You can also cut the straight section off by 2" and reduce the C-C spacing to a much more prototypical 4".

I can provide some more pics showing how I do the switch mod if there is any interest.

Rod

Rod, I'm interested to see how you cut your switches down. On my one switch I ground down the Bakelite surface flat and matched up O42 curve rails permanently attached on top, but I won't try that again.

Ace;

So as not to hijack the original poster's topic, I'll start a new thread with the 022 cut down procedure I think.

Rod

Good plan! See you there!