Lionel Or MTH 2-10-4

Dimensional fidelity.  Are you talking about the PRR J, or have they done the T&P locomotive?

The PRR J1. I should have been clear on that.

Thank you.

I have the MTH Santa Fe 2-10-4 from 2002 and it run great,only thing I have done on it is tires and lube, I believe these were made in Korea.

I like the Look of the lionel one more. It doesn't seem to have as big of a gap between the boiler/wheels.

Unless MTH has corrected it in a later run, the chassis is wrong. If you can live with that then they're both OK. I have the Lionel version and like it a lot; it's my go-to steam loco at the club.

I also have the 3rd Rail version, in my opinion the best model of the bunch. It would need upgrading to whichever command control you like and some fiddling with the chassis for running on O-72; plus, you really can't run it on a smaller radius curve.

If you're willing to ignore "external differences" such as the MTH version having the wrong driver spacing, the 5th driver set incorrectly recessed under the firebox and the wrong tender then why ask your question on the 3-rail scale forum?

Is one or the other a better puller, more reliable or have better sound system ?

i would prefer the 3rd rail brass prr j myself if i was still in 3 rail. i had both the Lionel as well as 2 3rd rail j's. i converted 1 to 2 rail to go along with my 2 Westside and 1 Bill Lenoir . if interested in the 2nd 3rd rail one contact me at my email address.

Rattler,

I have had a lot of trouble with my MTH PRR J1 Texas type, same issues you mentioned. I think it has to with the wireless tether working loose. I have had it repaired several time, no one can get it right.

Someone make me a reasonable offer and its yours as is.

Lionel came out with new Legacy Models of this Engine in the 2011 Signature Catalog.

This locomotive also has smoke down the cylinders, nice Whistle and Legacy Sounds.  It comes with the long tender with the dog house on the end, which also lights up. I have this engine and it's Awesome.  I can send You pictures. Happy Railroading.

I can't talk about the Lionel version but I really like my MTH Premier C&O 2-10-4. I bought this from Mr. Muffin a few years ago.

Scott Smith

John,

I feel you pain. I have an MTH Pennsy Decapod, the one with the wire tether. It also stops for no reason. I restart it and it runs a while and stops again.

I have the Lionel Pennsy  2 10 4 from the first run of the model back in 20??. It still runs great, looks good and sounds great. It has developed a blinking head light. It must be loose, but I am just not confident enough with my repair skills to open it up and fix the head light.

Richard 

Richard,  If you are running in command mode, the blinking headlight can be an indication   of poor TMCC signal reception.

I have the MTH Pennsy J-1 2-10-4. I love it! Great looking engine. It has the look of a massive and powerful engine. Runs great. I have had an occasional problem where the wireless tether works loose and the engine stops. Doesn't happen often so I never investigated fixing it. Requires wide radius curves. Rated as O-72 but it will run on curves of slightly smaller radius.

MTH needs to return to the wired tether or correct the design of the "wireless" tether.  Problems with this "wireless" tether could have long term impacts on steam locomotive sales.  I have some Rail King Santa Fe Northerns that refused to operate due to "wireless" tether connection problems.

It really doesn't matter.  I have one of each and both are quite nice.  I won't say one is better looking than the other: they both are handsome locos and nicely detailed.  

As is generally the case with Legacy vs. Premier comparisons, the Lionel has slightly better sound and runs a tiny bit better at low speeds in conventional, but it's not important either.  The Lionel costs about 15% more, new and used, so there is that.  

I have the 3rd Rail one sitting patiently waiting for a command upgrade.  I suspect, as with other 3rd Rail conversions I've done, I'll need to do some tweaking of the running gear for trouble-free running.

I have the MTH "War Bonds" coal car set. I like the distinctive red top tender. Lionel is all black. I don't care about prototypical. It just looks better to me. I also prefer getting the set as a whole vs. just the engine by itself. 

I had the tether come loose once or twice in 100 miles so far. Not sure if it was something I did or not. It appears to be a standard MTH tether and I've not had much trouble with it on other engines. I'd be curious if anyone has discovered what is different is on this engine Or any particular technique used to assure that the tether is fully snapped in place. It is hard to tell.

The only truly accurate models of the PRR J1 class 2-10-4 and the C&O T-1 class 2-10-4, in 3-Rail, were produced by Sunset/3rd Rail!

If you want accuracy...Sunset 3rd...FTW !  Lionel, OTOH, has a killer sound set in their die-cast PRR Jay. Waaay better than the generic set in the new Legacy version.  I suspect that Lionel got a hold of Al Shade's PRR Sandusky Line tapes for the 2001 run...except for the chug issue, they're perfect !  Sunset also has the advantage of either two or three rail models available.

The Lionel C&O T-1 is -completely- incorrect between the cab and boiler front/pilot. Lionel

used the PRR boiler casting, replacing the loco's front with C&O-specific castings, as well as the cab, and a C&O-style tender.

I have that loco, and bought it used some years ago. I wanted to freelance it a bit, anyway,

so I figured if Lionel could do it, so could I. I removed the C&O smokebox front, purchased the PRR boiler front casting, replaced the Pennsy keystone with a rectangular number board, added a visor to the headlight, slapped it on, and, voila!, un loco unique!

Runs well; big, handsome thing.

I have the 3rd Rail PRR J, pre-TMCC. Looks nice; shelf queen.

I would suggest that you purchase both the "C&O Power" and "Pennsy Power" books, in order to become familiar with the real locomotives and how to tell the deficiencies of the Lionel & MTH models.

But Hot Water....I'm not retired yet!!  Work takes up too much of my time. 

Edited b/c my original smiley face was sticking it's tongue out.....which is not the impression I intended to give.

If memory serves me correctly the principal visual difference between the M1a and M1b was outside vs inside steam delivery pipes to the cylinders. Not even noticeable to many modelers unless it is pointed out. The M1 class ran over more territory than the J's due to factors such as weight restrictions, track profile,etc.

If you are looking to save money the Weaver model from the early 1990's is not bad other than a too long front deck to handle 3 rail flanges. The most accurate M1a/b is the Sunset model but good luck finding one of those.

One thing typical of PRR that the M class has that the J doesn't is a Belpaire firebox, the squared off top of the boiler in front of the cab. J class locomotives do not have that type firebox.

The 3rd Rail J "looks" more massive than the Lionel version (I have not bothered to take a scale to my Lionel & 3rd rail models). However, you cannot run it on O-72 curves; the blind drivers drop inside/outside the rails plus the sharp inner edges of these drivers don't give them a chance to move up as the loco exits the curve The combo causes it to derail. There is a fix that you can use by blocking up the middle drivers a bit. Yep- it needs to be TMCC'd or DCS'd, whatever floats your boat. Wish I could get the sound card for Lionel's J to use with my 3rd Rail version.

I have the 3rd Rail M1a/b and the Weaver ditto. The 3rd Rail version is close to perfect to my eye. The Weaver is fine but a bit nekkid plus it draws a lot of current. Someday I'll replace the motor.

On cab roof and tender deck color-black is more correct for postwar PRR locos. Even the locos with red on roofs and decks got grimy fast enough and appear black in photos.

Thanks Dave,

The engine runs great in TMCC, all functions work. The headlight goes completely out and comes back on when the engine is jolted by the track or bounces through a switch

Richard

I also have the Premier I1s 2-10-0.  It was stopping on curves, but all the sounds and lights were working.  Upon further inspection we discovered the problem is in the socket where the tether plus in.  It seems that the solder joints where the motor wires are attached to the socket are suspect.  We worked on it and now its runs, though for how long I don't know.  It may end up going to MTH for repair or replacement of the socket.

Stuart

Arthur, if you send me an email, I will send you pictures of tbe Lionel Legacy Version PENNSYLVANIA. Your email is not listed. Thanks. Leapin Larry

I love my Sunset / 3rd Rail version, but it is two rail.  A very nice scale version that is faithful to the prototype. 

As I said earlier, I have both the MTH and the Lionel.  There really isn't enough difference to make a clear case for either in my case.  The 3rd Rail version may be more prototypical or not - to me it hardly matters.  The MTH and Lionel both look great.

If you have a preference for DCS or Legacy, I'd let that decide it for you.  If you run conventional like me and won't care, I'd recommend deciding based on the price you get.

One great thing about the Sunset 3rd rail Jay is the correct width pilot beam, which results in correct width front ladders. The Lionel pilot beam is about a foot too short and it throws the front of the locomotive slightly off.  OTOH, Lionel used the correct pilot truck extended reservoir friction bearing boxes, while Sunset's pilot truck looks like it escaped from an Espee Cab forward.  Eventually, I'd love to shoehorn the Lionel TMCC control into the Sunset model, and rework some of the other details for a near perfect PRR Jay! Mike's loco has a good looking boiler casting, and leaves everything else under the bus!  For the average SPF any of these machines will fill the bill, but the purist will have to use a little elbow grease to get from Columbus to Sandusky!  BTW, Sunset has spacers you can install in the 2-10-4 frame so it won't drop out on 072 track.  I have a set....good item.

Thanks guys.  I appreciate all of the input.

I do not care to purchase J1as or Q2s with red cab roofs.  I doubt a red cab roof is prototypical, particularly on a large brute of a locomotive.  To me, these workhorses look better without lipstick.

Actually the "red cab roof" doesn't have that much to do with the size of PRR steam locomotives. The PRR pretty much stopped the "red cab roof" procedure around the WWII era, as I recall, and the J1, T1, and Q classes of locomotives all came later. 

Thanks, Hot Water!  I was hoping you would weigh in on this discussion.  MTH makes a great looking J1a engine but fails in not producing a J1a tender - using the Q2 tender as a J1a tender.  Also, as indicated above and in other threads, MTH should give the J1a its own chassis.  Aside from those issues, their J1a locomotive shell is every bit the equal and may even look slightly better than the Lionel J1a shell.  I bought one of Leapin' Larry's Lionel J1as several years ago and did a side by side external comparison with the MTH model in a different thread on this forum.  Like Mr. Willis, I like both models.

Here is the link to an earlier thread comparing Lionel and MTH J1as.

https://ogrforum.com/t...38#11144471776905438

That is why I stated previously, above, that the Sunset/3rd Rail models of the PRR J1 class and the C&O T-1 class locomotives are the only prototypically correct models ever produced for the 3-Rail modeler.

I'd really love to see Scott do another run of these Bad Boys...with up dated detail and the newer belt drive.  A new sound chip (and system) would be part of this package too, and would no doubt be a huge improvement over the old QSI chip.  Naturally, I'll be pestering Scott to do a Lines West Straight side 210F84B tender.  Slap on the train phone....and head for Attica Junction !  Huzzah!