Lionel Pre-War 224e, 225e, 226e, 763e need an education

Awful lot of questions.  I have the 226E (correct tender is 2226W) 225E ( correct tenders are 2225W and the sheet metal 2235W) and 224E (correct tender 2224W)  Other tenders are marked T meaning no whistle.  224E also came with the sheet metal tender I think.  The 226E may have come with a Vanderbilt tender but I'm not sure.

I found the 226E and 225E on the O Gauge Forum without tenders and eventually found the tenders at York and a local train show.  The 224E was my first Lionel locomotive a million years ago.

Of course none of the prewar locos had magnetraction so they won't pull as well as the postwar locos with magnetraction.  The 226E is heavy enough to pull better than the other two.

They tend to be a bit noisy compared to other locomotives. 

But they are beautiful with their disk drivers and well crafted valve gear. And the 226E has a bulb in the firebox.

Prices vary. Go to Live Auctioneers or Invaluable and check out their price archives as well as the completed Ebay transactions.

Can't comment on the big Hudsons including the 763.

Also none are prototypical with the exception of the big Hudson inasmuch as they are either 2-6-4s or 2-6-2s.  Whistles have a charm of their own, but often don't work well without some TLC.

Motors seem to last forever and are relatively easy to lubricate.

Check out the Lionel catalogs or published Lionel history books to see which pulled which trains.  

Lew Schneider

The 763E is going to command a hefty price compared to the other locomotives. There were 3 variations. The first came in gunmetal gray with the same sheet metal 2263W oil tender as the tinplate 263E. The second variation came with a die cast 2226W coal tender. The third variation had both engine and tender painted black. The second variation is extremely hard to find and more desirable than the other two variations.

Most I've seen go from $1500-$3000 depending on condition. Bernie Rubin paid $17500 for a mint in box 763E with the gray coal tender almost 30 years ago.

The 763E's came with various sets. Some came with the 2800 series freight cars, others came with the 2600 series passenger cars. Most sought after are the semi scale versions of the 700-series freight cars made to go with the scale 700E, as well as the "Manhattan" bakelite passenger cars.

If you can only get one, get the 226E. It has fire box glow, a nice size, and a fabulous 12 wheel die cast tender. It is the ancestor of the postwar 726, 736, 2046, 2056 etc type locomotives. These can be had for around $350-450 in super condition.

The 763 is massive and looking either side of 2 grand for one. I may be wrong, but I think they may need large curves.

The 224 and 225 are smaller and great in their own right. These can be had $150-250 in decent condition.

Again,the 226E is the one I'd go for if I could only have one.

I have a 224E and a 225E. Both are really sharp looking engines, and run well. I find the mechanism to be very quiet, considering that we are talking about a 3-pole open frame motor, plus E-unit operating on AC. The 224E is not a great puller, but I replaced the rear coupler and have been running modern rolling stock behind it, which is a lot less of a load.

You can run these on a command layout using a TPC or similar to vary the track voltage, but they really are happier running on smooth sine wave AC. If you use a conventional transformer, you will find that the motor, and especially the e-unit, is quieter. Also, when I run these using a Power Master (older than a TPC and reportedly not as good, so your mileage may vary) I have trouble getting the whistle to blow.

A reasonable price is a moving target - it materializes when the item you want and the money you are willing to part with show up in the same place at the same time. But for what it's worth, I bought my black 225E with die-cast 2235W tender about 2 years ago for $175. Engine C-7, tender C-6. Other than needing to be washed and lubed, the only thing wrong with it was a bad e-unit drum, and one bent tender step. I thought that was a pretty good deal.

They are all great, prices in steps from 224E up to 763E.  Pulling power seems to step up like that as well if that is important.  Remember, no tires and no magnets on any of them.  Like most things you can spend as much as you want, but I would think you could find a good complete 224E with diecast tender in great shape for $175-250, 225E add  another $100 and then 226E maybe $300-500 and the 763E probably $750 up.

opinion, the 226E is the best bang for your buck of the group.  It has extra lead weights in the boiler and thus will pull considerably more than the 224E and 225E.  I love them all and they are all silky smooth runners.  As a group, they are my favorite locos.

These are all great-running locos in the eyes of prewar collectors.  I'm 99% sure the 763e Hudson requires O-72 curves, although it has a blind center driver. Even if it would take sharper than O-72 curves, I wouldn't do it; the drivers on that loco are fragile. Also, the frame on the 763e is prone to warping. You might not see it when you look at it, but if the frame is even slightly warped, performance will be an issue. 

Also, regarding color, the only one of these locos that was not produced in gunmetal is the 226E--it was black only. Gunmetal loco/tender combos with the coal tender are going to command a much higher price than the other tender types. 

John

J Daddy posted:

So I was looking at buying the following locomotives and needed some information.

First, I run command all the time, but I wanted to run these on the layout.

You'll Need a BPC, TPC or power master to operate these.  at 18 volts they will be wicked fast except the 763.

Any issues with the increased voltage?  No, other than above issue.

What tenders are correct for these locomotives?

224- 2224 T/W Die cast and plastic , 2689 T/W tinplate

225- 2225 T/W , 2235 T/W/WX die cast and plastic, 2245 T/W, 2265 W/WX

226- 2226 W/WX

763- 2226 W/WX, 2263 W

Besides York where is the best place to find these in great shape at a reasonable price? Auction houses

What is that reasonable price?

It varies by loco and color...224/2224W in black C8 $150+/- up to the 763/2226W in Gunmetal C8 $8000

What should I beware of when I purchase There is a pretty steep learning curve on the 763.  On the others, mainly boiler front replacements, broken marker lights, cab roof bends....pilot and trailing truck replacements.

Are they hard to repair and are parts available They are easy, and there are most parts...except for bends in the cab.

How do I find out what was released with these engines as far as passenger cars? That is a big list.  find a Greenberg book, or catalogs.

Are they a better quality than their Post War brothers? IMO yes.  They are quieter, and run better.  The 226 is HEAVY and will pull well.

 

 

 

Here are a couple of examples.  The 225E, 226E, and 763E all pulled the 2623 Madison cars.  Before that they pulled tinplate cars.  226E/763E pulled 2613/14/15

225E pulled 2600/01/02

224E pulled 2640/41 & 2642/43 passenger cars

JDaddy,

  I have a nice little collection of Tin Plate and even the new MTH reproduction are holding their prices decently.  I even had Guns up Grade a 249 Lionel original with ERR.

If you are looking to find the originals, attend the Train Shows, especially if you live in the eastern part of the USA, these train shows usually have decent prices.  In reality prices vary greatly depending on just where you live, and how much Tin Plate is available in that particular area.  

If you run DCS and have the Z4K, the original Lionel's run great with the TR function of the DCS HHRC, it's one of the reasons I talk about the Z4K side Receiver from time to time here on the OGR.   The original Lionel Tin runs smoother than you can actually ever believe it would, using the Tracks option.  

The new MTH reproductions are definitely quite run better and work with DCS HHRC, and they are very well built.  Engine colors differ from original Lionel colors slightly on purpose.  My P2 263E is a fantastic Work Train with both original Rolling Stock and Reproduction MTH/Lionel also.

I highly recommend both, run in via the DCS HHRC in the manners I have pointed out above.

PCRR/Dave

Great info guys... keep it coming.

Do any of these locomotives smoke?

Is the 763e rare or is it just highly sought after? I never see them for sale.

No smoke units on these prewar babys.

The 763 is large, and the rarest of the bunch. I saw at least a dozen for sale at the last York event I attended. I saw many many more of the other ones. I actually bought my 226E at that York.

Smoke was a feature invented while Lionel wasn't making trains during WW2 and introduced shortly after production resumed in the postwar years.

I picked a well used but good looking 224E up at a local train show for $35.  It ran oK, but ran better after I replaced a few worn parts and is now one of my best runners.  I picked up another one and its original set on ebay shortly after.  I love running them both.  The 225e is the same mechanism mounted under a different shell, so it should run similarly.  My brother and dad just purchased a 226E at a local train show and it too is a great runner (and looker).  The 226E shell is what became the postwar 726/736 Berkshires.

You mention higher voltage being an issue?  Are you running 18V to the track at all times?  If that's the case, then you'll need to figure out a way to vary the voltage because these things will run way too fast at 18V.

Good luck, these are some of the best running and looking locomotives of that era.  

Hi Jake,

Thanks for the input. Yes, I have a ZW-L . I think you came to my open house last year?

Any-who, not sure if the ZW-L would cause any whistle issues. I had a prewar Lionel switcher 1656 on the track with the ringing bell. After about 4 minutes it stopped ringing. Not sure if it was related to my new power source or not, but I will have to take it apart and see what happened.

I was curious if the newer transformers cause the older locomotives to run a little louder?

Well on the hunt now... I may start with the 224e with the 2224 W Die Cast tender and work my way up!

763 is above my pay grade. But I have two 224Es,a 225E,and a 226E/ All run quiet, and pull as many cars as I want.

J Daddy posted:

Hi Jake,

Thanks for the input. Yes, I have a ZW-L . I think you came to my open house last year?

Any-who, not sure if the ZW-L would cause any whistle issues. I had a prewar Lionel switcher 1656 on the track with the ringing bell. After about 4 minutes it stopped ringing. Not sure if it was related to my new power source or not, but I will have to take it apart and see what happened.

I was curious if the newer transformers cause the older locomotives to run a little louder?

 

Well on the hunt now... I may start with the 224e with the 2224 W Die Cast tender and work my way up!

 

 

 

 

I haven't made it to an open house there yet, though I admire the detail of your layout.  I haven't had any experience with a ZW-L, but I don't see why they would cause issues with operating.  I know the Whistles sometimes have a compatibility issue with TMCC TPC's and require the installation of a capacitor (from what I remember at least) that solves the issue.  I can't remember the specifics.

As I mentioned before, the 224E's I own are some of my favorite runners.  Very smooth and reliable.  I can also throw a postwar tender behind them and they don't look out of place with my postwar cars.

JDaddy,

   Steamer is giving good advise, the 224E is a good engine and pulls quite well.  If you can pick up a 763E at a reasonable price there is the prize.  Just make sure it has a good E unit in it, before you purchase it.  

Guns repaired & upgraded my Lionel 249 with ERR and man it's really something, pulls either 600 or 800 series rolling stock.  It was Lionel's mid sized Tin Plate Engine and Tender.  As far as I know I have the only 249 ERR around, Guns did a fantastic job on it.  

If you like the MTH Repro Tin Plate with P2 or P3 there are a lots of good Tin Plate Engines and Train sets to pick from.  

I do Caution about the 12 wheel Tenders on all these Tin Plate Trains, most Switches do not play well with them, some track does not either.  IMO the very best switches for running them were the original Lionel 711's/072's & the original low voltage Super Snap K-Line Switches.  The newer RMT SS are not exactly the same unfortunately, and most have problems of different types.  Wish I would have never sold my original SS K-Line's, I still have my original Lionel 711's, I use LED's in them to keep the power draw to a minimum. We plan to set up a Conventional Tubular Layout just for my Tin Plate Consist's, with the 711/072 switches, as we continue building the new Train Room.  I want the Conventional Tubular throw back look, for my Tin Plate Trains, along with my FasTrack, on some of the remainder of the Train Room layouts.  Man how I wish Ross's Tin Plate Switches were really Tin Plate low voltage switches, we could really have used that modern engineering for our Tin Plate Trains.

PCRR/Dave

Tin Plate Trains the Real Stuff!  The 263E Work Train Consist on the over head self layout. My favorite O Gauge Train, nothing comes close, we own both the original Lionel and the MTH Repro P2 Work Trains, and the memories that goes with them.

Me with my Grandpa Christmas 1949-1950, running my Lionel 263E Work Train Christmas Present, given to me by my Father.  It was his Christmas present as a young boy also.  Little boys Lionel toys, handed down thru the generations in our family.

there are several buy it now 224Es on the bay for $150 or under...225Es bring more, and 226Es usually $300 and up...but deals all can be found.

Great information all. I have a pretty nice 226E from when I was a boy. It has the #2600/2601/2602 passenger cars that are in pretty poor condition. The Locomotive and tender work great, but I'd like to restore the cars. Anyone know a source for parts and part numbers for same? Also, the identification of the "Red" paint color for the cars. Any other help would be greatly appreciated as well.

Lion L

Jeff at The Train Tender is the go to guy for parts

http://www.ttender.com/

If you can see your way to get them all; then get them all.  I don't have any experience with the 763 but wish I did.   A great looking engine and when I've seen it operated I thought it was a thing of beauty.  The 224E, 225E and 226E are in my opinion the smoothest and quietest of any Lionel locomotive ever made.  They are as smooth as silk and a pleasure to operate.  The 226E is the best of the three.  Its bigger, heavier and pulls better than the 224e and 225E.  Throw in the firebox glow and its hard to beat.  The prices on the 224E and 225e can vary of course depending upon condition but you should be able to pick either one up between $150 to $250. The 226E can go as high as high as $600.00 in pristine condition but in excellent condition I think you are looking at the $350 to $450 range.  I have all three of these engines and absolutely love them.  Old Lionel at its best.

count the 675s with the Baldwin drivers in that group as well.

The 225 morphed into the postwar 675 and its brethren.

Great info on these locos; have a prewar 224E; what is the normal starting voltage for these locos?  Mine runs smooth but takes at least 14V  to get it turning; lubed all gears and axles.  Very smooth running and wheels coast to a stop; nice loco.  Any info is appreciated; thanks; Falcon70

JDaddy,

Thanks for starting this thread.   Most of this info I knew but there is always more to learn. 

I hope to find a nice 226e if I ever get to a big show again. 

As mentioned by others the 763e Hudson is the cream of the crop.  It does have some potential for serious problems,  including the whole boiler swelling.   Do lots of homework before making that leap.  Auction houses, including forum sponsor Stouts is a good source.  I did see one on the top shelf at the Train Room in Hagerstown MD last summer. 

If you run dcs, set up a track for variable output and you can still run through the remote.   The min 5 volt start won't be a problem on these older units. 

Another option is to hunt down an mth unit from the 767 freight set.  This is a premier detailed engine with a 263 style tinplate tender.  I got my set for a steal and sold off the rolling stock to keep the overall engine cost down.  This is my primary motive power right now. (getting the tender shell off to change the battery is a little tricky, I will gladly tell you about if you get one.)  This whole set will cost you less than an original 763e.  I think there is on one the bay right now. 

Falcon70 posted:

what is the normal starting voltage for these locos?  Mine runs smooth but takes at least 14V  to get it turning...

I have a 1938 and a couple of 1941 versions, at 14 volts it's difficult to keep them on the track on O42 curves as they are real speed demons.

Rob; thinking 14V is a bit much; it is not new for sure but run very little; will tune up the  e unit and see if it starts at a lower voltage; they do run sweet.  Thanks for the come back; Falcon

Falcon70 posted:

Rob; thinking 14V is a bit much; it is not new for sure but run very little; will tune up the  e unit and see if it starts at a lower voltage; they do run sweet.  Thanks for the come back; Falcon

I just took a look at my 1666E which I believe uses a pretty similar motor chassis.  It starts moving with no load behind it at less than 10 volts (maybe 7 or 8 volts) and like Rob said, would be flying at 14.  I can pull my 224Es out of storage later and give them a test as well but I'm pretty sure they'd come in somewhere similar to that 1666E.

Edit: Curiosity got the best of me and I dug my two 224E's out of my storage box and put them on the track.  One needs about 12-13V to move smoothly, the other runs fine at about 10V as I would expect.  Granted the one requiring more voltage was definitely more well used when I acquired it and could probably use a tuneup even now since I've run it quite a bit myself.  The voltages were read from the built in gauges on my ZW-L transformer, so probably not the most accurate but checks with my voltmeter awhile back showed they were pretty close.

I lucked into a 763 right before everything went on lock down. I was very surprised they had got one in at the local train shop. The guy sold off all his big die cast steamers like the day before. They really wanted me to buy the 226 also. After what I spent on the 763, I said that was my budget for a few months. 

I'm really happy with it though. Very smooth runner. Of course my layout isn't big enough for it. Never planned on owning such a thing. I guess I need to tear out my curves and go wider some day...

Have 224e had a 225e in past have several 675 and 2025 early versions with numbers stamped under cab window and on front of engine,all have baldwin wheels the 675 and 2025 do smoke.They all run quiet and smooth and correct me if wrong but appear to all have the same motor as i see not difference in them.

Always suspected the 226E has also same motor but do not have that engine and suspect it pulls better because of its heavier boiler and weights which the others above do not have.

Have had the 675 and 2025 later versions that have the spoke wheels instead of the baldwin wheels and can attest they did not run as smooth and not as quiet as the first versions made with baldwin wheels.In one of the books it was mentioned machine standards were loosened when the spoke wheels appeared on the 675 and 2025.

RamblerDon posted:

I lucked into a 763 right before everything went on lock down. I was very surprised they had got one in at the local train shop. The guy sold off all his big die cast steamers like the day before. They really wanted me to buy the 226 also. After what I spent on the 763, I said that was my budget for a few months. 

 

I'm really happy with it though. Very smooth runner. Of course my layout isn't big enough for it. Never planned on owning such a thing. I guess I need to tear out my curves and go wider some day...

Show us a few pics.  I got one not too long ago also. 

Here are a few pictures.

Sorry for the double post. All the photos didn't load the on the 1st post.

Holy crapballs Batman, even got original boxes. Really nice.  Mine is a grey 763E with the oil type tender. 

Just did a photo shot you could say here are some more pictures and the coaches also.