@Paul Kallus posted:The only aspect I didn't care for, which was a trademark for this and other PRR engines, was the Banshee whistle
That's my favorite part of the Hippos and MTH H10s!
I especially like this version, and I'm hoping Lionel gets a license to use it in the L1s and I1s.
Best around the 1:30 to 2:00 min mark.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I wasn't saying your numbers were off, where I had looked is what I meant. I think part of the numbers were from Wikipedia, others where a site I have not been on before. I don't think the I1's were on the other site, but the Wikipedia.
We need a PRRpedia Dave!
And NYC too. I say this begrudgingly as a PRR disciple.
@rplst8 posted:We need a PRRpedia Dave!
And NYC too. I say this begrudgingly as a PRR disciple.
Bob is the PRR encyclopedia for almost everything.
@rplst8 posted:That's my favorite part of the Hippos and MTH H10s!
I especially like this version, and I'm hoping Lionel gets a license to use it in the L1s and I1s.
Best around the 1:30 to 2:00 min mark.
Great video, awesome scene.
@rplst8 posted:That's my favorite part of the Hippos and MTH H10s!
I especially like this version, and I'm hoping Lionel gets a license to use it in the L1s and I1s.
Best around the 1:30 to 2:00 min mark.
Lionel will most likely use their current banshee found on the Legacy b6sb and H10.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I really do like the looks of these engines. I may decide to order two instead of one, but I think I'm going to have to really weigh my options on this. I definitely need some bigger Pennsy steam. Having a bunch of K4's, one M1, and one Texas, this will have more of a challenge or balance if you will to my New York Central fleet.
Ironically, I am in the opposite position - waiting for Lionel to do an updated run of K4's and M1's before I am ready for an L1 or M1.
If they offered an L1 with a doghouse, then I might have pulled the trigger on that one.
@Prr7688 posted:Ironically, I am in the opposite position - waiting for Lionel to do an updated run of K4's and M1's before I am ready for an L1 or M1.
If they offered an L1 with a doghouse, then I might have pulled the trigger on that one.
I got lucky on my M1. I had been out of the hobby and saw a video on it. By chance I called up my local train store which I had not been in for quite some time. He had the set, which was a surprise, I told him I would be there the next night if he was open, he said yes. I popped by the bank, got the money, drove down and paid cash. It was the best purchase I have made, all because of being lucky. He has had stuff come in, that I haven't ordered, and I see it for a bit, and it disappears.
@rplst8 posted:That's my favorite part of the Hippos and MTH H10s!
I especially like this version, and I'm hoping Lionel gets a license to use it in the L1s and I1s.
Best around the 1:30 to 2:00 min mark.
Now that is dang eerie. Talk about piercing, that will definitely wake your behind up if you are asleep, that much is certain.
@Prr7688 posted:If they offered an L1 with a doghouse, then I might have pulled the trigger on that one.
In addition to 3rd Rail, scale L1s with doghouse models were offered by Williams, Weaver and MTH. Prr7688 must be a die-hard Lionel guy.
@Prr7688 posted:If they offered an L1 with a doghouse, then I might have pulled the trigger on that one.
Unless I'm misunderstanding. There are 2 Prr L1 Mikados with doghouse in the Lionel 2022 c2 catalog.
The $789.00 preorder prices on these was a reasonable by today's standards.
They are due June/July and are the Mth tooling:
https://www.lionelstore.com/Pe...EGACY-L1-Mikado-1627
https://www.lionelstore.com/Pe...EGACY-L1-Mikado-1343
Back to the decapod discussion.
@Prr7688 posted:Ironically, I am in the opposite position - waiting for Lionel to do an updated run of K4's and M1's before I am ready for an L1 or M1.
If they offered an L1 with a doghouse, then I might have pulled the trigger on that one.
@Bob posted:In addition to 3rd Rail, scale L1s with doghouse models were offered by Williams, Weaver and MTH. Prr7688 must be a die-hard Lionel guy.
And didn’t actually look at the catalog?
@rplst8 posted:That's my favorite part of the Hippos and MTH H10s!
I especially like this version, and I'm hoping Lionel gets a license to use it in the L1s and I1s.
Best around the 1:30 to 2:00 min mark.
Actually, it sounds like the I1s have Pennsy 3 chime like the M1s.
With 5 legacy whistles I imagine the banshee and 3 chime will be in the selection.
@RickO posted:Actually, it sounds like the I1s have Pennsy 3 chime like the M1s.
With 5 legacy whistles I imagine the banshee and 3 chime will be in the selection.
They probably will have both like you say. I don’t think that whistles were specific to the whole class. Nearly all Pennsy steam was built by two different shops. Altoona and Baldwin.
I imagine the whistles that were affixed were probably influenced by that fact, rebuilds and shop visits, and maybe even the preference of the crews.
That said, I don’t know for certain.
Just checked out the links above for the L1 Mikado from 2022 catalog, had completely forgot about them, and saw the list price. With the understanding that the I1s are a bit larger, are there other factors in the large price difference ($500) between them? Both have whistle steam and I think both are "new" tooling acquired from MTH. This is a head scratcher...I can see $200 more for the I1s in just the overall size.
@Paul Kallus posted:Just checked out the links above for the L1 Mikado from 2022 catalog, had completely forgot about them, and saw the list price. With the understanding that the I1s are a bit larger, are there other factors in the large price difference ($500) between them? Both have whistle steam and I think both are "new" tooling acquired from MTH. This is a head scratcher...I can see $200 more for the I1s in just the overall size.
Indeed. Maybe the licensing costs for the I1 tooling were higher? I don’t know if the L1 was a “from scratch” effort like the I1 might have been?
That or Lionel kept the L1 price low and released it first, to snag more sales of both from people that wanted some diversity in their Lionel-built PRR freight locomotives and settled on the L1.
It’s unclear to me otherwise because while inflation has been a problem, it certainly hasn’t gotten that much worse in the last six months.
@Paul Kallus posted:With the understanding that the I1s are a bit larger, are there other factors in the large price difference ($500) between them? Both have whistle steam and I think both are "new" tooling acquired from MTH. This is a head scratcher...I can see $200 more for the I1s in just the overall size.
Every now and then. Lionel has an MSRP that's much easier on the wallet. Which is why I jumped on the L1 Mikado
The first MR s3 , and the Prr h10 from a few years ago also fall into this catagory
For comparison, the last "K Line tooled" mikado from Lionel was cataloged at $1299.99
I think the difference in price between the L1 and decapod is not as much "why is the decapod so high" as much as the L1 comes in reasonably priced as I mentioned above.
@rplst8 posted:And didn’t actually look at the catalog?
@RickO posted:Unless I'm misunderstanding. There are 2 Prr L1 Mikados with doghouse in the Lionel 2022 c2 catalog.
The $789.00 preorder prices on these was a reasonable by today's standards.
They are due June/July and are the Mth tooling:
https://www.lionelstore.com/Pe...EGACY-L1-Mikado-1627
https://www.lionelstore.com/Pe...EGACY-L1-Mikado-1343
Back to the decapod discussion.
Whoops! I realize I misspoke... I would have been interested in a pre-war L1 with doghouse. The only ones that were offered outright with doghouse were the post-war versions. The legacy set in the catalog did have pre-war L1 with doghouse, however I wasn't interested in the set as a whole (although may see if a dealer will break the set).
@Bob posted:In addition to 3rd Rail, scale L1s with doghouse models were offered by Williams, Weaver and MTH. Prr7688 must be a die-hard Lionel guy.
I would be interested in other manufactures' versions if they had the "bells and whistles" that come with Legacy out of the box as I am not really interested in after-market upgrades at this point in my collecting. I also don't have DCS (and no intent to get it at this time) so a second-hand MTH one would be out.
I'm trying to remember from the catalog show, did Ryan say that the I1's would be moving coal with it double headed or even a pusher at the end or somewhere in the train?
I believe one of the videos I watched recently did have a double headed train, but I don't think it was I1's. I can't remember what video it was, other than it being Pennsylvania Railroad.
Any ideas?
Dave, am not sure of the video you're talking about, but in the Pennsy Power books by Staufer their are photos of multiple Is in action, pushers included.
Regarding the L1 Mikado and the I1 Decapod, has it been confirmed by Lionel that both are based on the former Premier dyes that MTH sold to Lionel? If so, am curious if these includes the drive-trains and all mechanicals? I would think yes but am far from an expert on the guts of electric trains and "the what and how" of the sale/transfer of such property includes.
The reason I ask is because as an owner of the Premier I1s I can verify that they are very-well engineered machines, although that observation is anecdotal as I've only run the heck out of them and the only maintenance I've performed is lubing and traction tires, nonetheless it'd be reassuring to know that the Legacy version will have the same mechanics (albeit Lionel is using Canon motors instead of Pittman) just different control and sound system.
FWIW: I've performed a visual check of my Legacy PRR K4s and Premier Decapod; and assuming Lionel uses the K4s boiler on the L1 Mikado, I still cannot understand the large price difference between them based on boiler size and detail alone. However, it is possible the Decapod drive train is more complex than the L1 Mikado (10 wheels vs. 8 wheels) and if true would warrant a higher price.
At the end of the day, and despite the price, it is exciting for us PRR fans to see an O-scale model of the Hippos with Legacy and Railsounds. MTH last produced their scale model in 2006, and their very-well-proportioned design will live on. The Hippos were a staple for the PRR and were a tremendous freight mover and lend themselves well to double and triple heading 
.
Paul, it was one of the 15 videos I watched this weekend. The majority were all New York Central videos mainly with Dreyfuss Hudson's, but I did manage to stumble upon either one or two videos that had Pennsylvania Steam in action. My problem is trying to get back and see what I was watching. I watch quite a bit of stuff day to day, so I'd need a bit of time on the weekend to look back. The other problem is not remembering what the title is. It could have well been a mixed video with Penny vs New York Central, but those usually stand out. I'll have to check this coming weekend.
Well, I was looking around on YouTube for some I1's, and found this audio with some great pictures throughout it.
Any idea what sort of whistle that is sounding out there? Almost reminds me of the Black River and Western's #60's old whistle before they replaced it recently.
@Paul Kallus posted:Regarding the L1 Mikado and the I1 Decapod, has it been confirmed by Lionel that both are based on the former Premier dyes that MTH sold to Lionel?
Yes
If so, am curious if these includes the drive-trains and all mechanicals?
Well, Lionel has been redesigning most of their gearboxes, as well as those of other tooling i.e. K Line and adding extra gears to either lower the speed or compensate for a shortcoming either electronically or with the now standard Canon can motor that is no where near as good as the Pittmans used in the mid 2000's. The rest of the lcomotive will probably be the same.
FWIW: I've performed a visual check of my Legacy PRR K4s and Premier Decapod; and assuming Lionel uses the K4s boiler on the L1 Mikado,
The Legacy K4 is K Line tooling. Its not likely a direct bolt on to the MTH decapod chassis. If they were to modify it, it wouldn't work for the K 4 chassis. I assume they will use the MTH boiler.
I still cannot understand the large price difference between them based on boiler size and detail alone. However, it is possible the Decapod drive train is more complex than the L1 Mikado (10 wheels vs. 8 wheels) and if true would warrant a higher price.
I surmised an explanation in my response to your questioning the price above. In short. Its not so much that the decapod is higher , but rather the Mikado is a" good deal " judging by Lionels previous pricing for previous Mikado offerings which were $1299. I paid the same preorder price for a Legacy heavy Mikado back in 2014, as for the current L1's. ( The more I think of it at $789.00 preorder price. I should have bought 2 L1's}
See here, the USRA Mikados are the K Line scale Mikados Lionel has had multiple runs of:
http://www.lionel.com/search?q...el%20legacy%20mikado
At the end of the day, and despite the price, it is exciting for us PRR fans to see an O-scale model of the Hippos with Legacy and Railsounds. MTH last produced their scale model in 2006, and their very-well-proportioned design will live on.
Agreed.
Great picture-video and information, respectively, Dave and Rick, thanks! The whistle soundings are definitely cool and don't sound banshee-like, more of a throaty multi-chimer. In the one color photo of the dirty I1, you can certainly the resemblance to a Hippo 
As I mentioned earlier, the Premier Hippo has a simulated-circular boiler underneath the mid-section that is very well done, and in studying the photos Dave provided above it's very accurate to the real thing.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Any idea what sort of whistle that is sounding out there? Almost reminds me of the Black River and Western's #60's old whistle before they replaced it recently.
Sounds like a Pennsy 3 chime, a little worn /raspy.
Here's a compilation of 1361's 3 chime. It sounds different in every clip.
Lionel has a nice pennsy 3 chime they used on the Legacy M1b. Something a bit more raspy was used on the newer Legacy m1a. Maybe the decapod will have both available.
One question I have is did the Pennsy have assigned whistles to classes? Is it possible that there could be a couple different whistle types for the same class of engine like the Decapods? I do know one of the other videos I listened to the whistle sounded deeper than the one I posted here, but not like the big whistles like the ones we find common on big N&W steam.
Great 1361 whistle video you found there Rick. I have the TMCC 1361 but haven't had it out in quite a few years. I had to put it away and currently don't have a layout big enough to run it. Working on that though.
Pennsy had exactly two whistles: the single-chime "banshee" freight whistle and the multi-chime passenger whistle. That's it. The multi-chime whistle was applied to later freight classes like the M1 4-8-2's. Other freight power often had their single-chime whistles changed out during the 1940's-50's.
The different pitches were due to the different boiler pressures in the locomotives: 205 psi for K4s and L1s vs. 250 psi for I1s, M1/M1a and 270 psi for M1b.
Thanks Bob, the resident Pennsy expert. I thought that there would have been something to cause different pitch, didn't even think about boiler pressure.
Some of the differences heard on the videos of 1361 are due to the proximity of the microphone on the recording equipment to the engine.
Some of what you hear is the distortion of either the microphone pre-amp overloading, or the mic capsule literally being pushed to it’s limits.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Thanks Bob, the resident Pennsy expert. I thought that there would have been something to cause different pitch, didn't even think about boiler pressure.
One of them, maybe, but certainly not the only one on this forum.
@RickO posted:Sounds like a Pennsy 3 chime, a little worn /raspy.
Here's a compilation of 1361's 3 chime. It sounds different in every clip.
Lionel has a nice pennsy 3 chime they used on the Legacy M1b. Something a bit more raspy was used on the newer Legacy m1a. Maybe the decapod will have both available.
Rick:
It would be great if the M1a whistle from the 2014 Legacy version is one of the options available. It's my favorite whistle by comparison to those on the other Lionel and MTH steam engines I own.
Pat
@Bob posted:Pennsy had exactly two whistles: the single-chime "banshee" freight whistle and the multi-chime passenger whistle. That's it. The multi-chime whistle was applied to later freight classes like the M1 4-8-2's. Other freight power often had their single-chime whistles changed out during the 1940's-50's.
The different pitches were due to the different boiler pressures in the locomotives: 205 psi for K4s and L1s vs. 250 psi for I1s, M1/M1a and 270 psi for M1b.
Yeah, if they were the same dia, legnth, and cut, then I would agree, pressure will change the note. I mean it will change the note anyway, but also if those three dims are held constant. The T1 had 300psi so it woul dhave probably sounded a bit different yet.
I ordered the two postwar numbers with the short tenders. The L1s are due in early summer and they should give a good idea on how Lionel will treat these ex-MTH models. It seems like Lionel doesn't tout the scale coupler hardware anymore although it's been showing up on the new engines I've looked at or taken delivery of (Class A, Y3). I really appreciate that they do it for us weirdos that like the Kadees.
I hope Lionel got ahold of MTH's nice H10, that would be awesome with Legacy.
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I hope Lionel got ahold of MTH's nice H10, that would be awesome with Legacy.
They might not have done that, since people seem to be buying their H9/H10/Harriman Consolidation foobie version. Forget lipstick on a pig, put a swinging bell on it and watch it fly out the door!
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I ordered the two postwar numbers with the short tenders. The L1s are due in early summer and they should give a good idea on how Lionel will treat these ex-MTH models. It seems like Lionel doesn't tout the scale coupler hardware anymore although it's been showing up on the new engines I've looked at or taken delivery of (Class A, Y3). I really appreciate that they do it for us weirdos that like the Kadees.
I hope Lionel got ahold of MTH's nice H10, that would be awesome with Legacy.
Honestly, the sound set for the H10 even back in the 5v version was really good.
@Bob posted:One of them, maybe, but certainly not the only one on this forum.
Yeah, that is true.
What about the 3 vs 4 digit numbering on these. I know other Pennsy models have the variation too.
What if any is reasoning on this as far as the prototype is concerned?
Does the 4 digit cab number represent a later build?
A minor yet cosmetically interesting point; as Chris pointed out in his detailed video review, one of the short-tendered versions has the PRR maroon colored cab roof (shown as prototypically correct hue) but the same model has the wrong orange colored tender deck whereas none of the long-tendered versions have the PRR maroon colored option. Taking a wild guess, the Juniata shops used this color (3-digit cab #s) whereas the Baldwin Works did not (later 4-digit cab #s)? Personally, I like the PRR maroon colored roofs, but not so much the orange red that sometimes gets done on the toy-train production and catalog lines 
Regardless of what the color is supposed to be, it looks like a mistake when the cab color doesn't match the tender, IMO, even if that is prototypical.
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