Lionel PW 726 Stall Problem......need some ideas

CW,

By the way, it's my impression we have been discussing a 1947-49 Berk, making it approximately 70 years old. It's going to have a little wear here and there.

More prophetic words have never been written. Incredible night.  I opened up the gear well and then got out my Dremel and cut a groove into it and shoved it onto the axle next to the worm. Flipped it over to check wheel bite. Perfect (or so I thought). Ran it on the layout (still without the shell). It ran well, but I had no jumpers on it so it stalled (a bit disappointed with that, but....I figured, I fixed the wheels).     NOPE  

I checked the wheels again and it appeared to be hitting again on the bad side. How can that be. I happened to be rotating the wheels and thought I saw a wobble. Connected to alligators.....yep, a wobble (but it gets worse). I thought....bent axle...I don't have much to lose to try and bend it back a bit.     From John below

Roger, while it should have nothing to do with your stalling problem you might want to check to ensure both rear drivers are tight on their axles.

I set up some blocks to try and bend it and lo and behold, before I did that, I grabbed the wheel and twisted.......LOOSE. And......it won't tighten. I have to admit defeat on this one. Got to send it out. Can't do wheels.  So......that rear pair caused a boatload of things. 

70 years old!!  Kind of like alot of US.

Roger

So that's it (most likely), the root cause of all this evil was a loose wheel?

I still will be curious to see if a repaired wheel fixes things - been a long road so far, kind of like some of my projects 

Well, I hope you get it sent out, repaired and are happy. Also hope the new wheel color matches the old....

A squared off feeler gauge (automotive...common) with a U sliced in it its end with a dremel will remove hidden C-clips. 

I ve had three posts on this page fail & the composer freaks out .  Just this page.

I think the roller is long enough to bridge the gap. and unlikely to wander off the center or it would do it in regular straights too. (look below) The issue with O on 0-27 is usually the roller falling off in turns (or chassis hitting the coil cover on turnouts or lack of articulation for the turn, or flange bind on huge steam ... but we are talking rollers)

Roller check: tape one roller off. if the loco is dead, or stutters, etc., the untaped roller is bad. 

Can you tweak the roller arm pivot tabs to one side? (check it for lateral play too.)

TESTS...

Tape the red areas; being careful to stay off the top of the center rail for the carefully cut short piece. 

  If it makes it (or hangs up on it) you are likely shorting the backs of your wheels. (I know things point to center but check as AC shorts do funny things)

LONG TAPE: cover over this, it is not in use other than being there to short againt.  I'm thinking it the point rails rivet is loose, wieght may rock the points lifting the other side (right side) enough to short on the wide roller. Carefully measuring the rivet location you can drill a big hole in the thin bottom for access to set it better. there is a trace there under it, but the rivet should protect it at breaktrhru.

  Squeeze your center rail connections again, maybe pull the pin and clean & maybe oil it if rusty. These connections are always cry babies. (if you have a fiber pin on center, extending things like that & anti derail 1 track might help.

Lionel has always suggested a lock on (3 total) be used as close as possible to the 3 legs of each turnout .  This takes a load off of power NEEDING to pass thru the turnouts rivets etc.... long story short, wire makesfor consistency in power feeds

And when you do things like pins, tests, etc. do them one at a time, and note results so in 5 years you might recall where to begin again

Covering the point rail alone, not bothering with the short tape, if it shorts, your gauge is too narrow. The long rail should keep that short from ever happening at proper width.  Just look.

Adriatic,

Glad you stuck with us through all this. I'll have to do those tests when I get it back (hopefully with new wheels and bushings on the rear). Thanks for that. 

It's funny, though......I've got tape on many of my switches in the exact places you've got in the photos. One thing about 91 breakers.......they cut you no slack. The slightest short and they instantly cut out. So, I start out using tape to find the places where the rollers slide down to a side rail (especially on a swivel) or a pilot wheel tapping the frog. Then.....it gets either a small piece of tape or.......super glue......and my work is done. But every new engine I get.....it has to make it across the mine fields. Most do, but every once in a while, I have to tweak it. But this one came out of nowhere. I've had it for 5 years and it ran flawlessly.  But as CW said......it's 70. 

Also.....about the rocking swivel. I get that occasionally and the tape usually solves it. This time, I put a shim under the swivel to keep it from rocking up. Still got stalls. So.....I replaced that switch. Smoother ride. With these 1122s.....if I get rough, noisy rides out of them (or too many shorts), I replace them. They are all wired through the bottom for fixed voltage with a capacitor system to help power it. Works great. 

Roger

Roger1... did you figure out the problem on your 726 ?

I have a similar problem with my 736 when it goes over a couple of my turnout switches (6-23010, 6-23011).

I suspect my e-unit as I did attempt at servicing it last year, and just recently put everything back together, which wasn't easy, but it seemed to be working as far as switching to forward and reverse.

I have another 736 that I tried running on this same section of track, and do not have issues with it.

Airmojo,

Yes, the 726 is fixed. Lots of stuff was wrong with it. Mainly wheel issues. I don't have the tools for those repairs so I sent it out to Chuck Sartor on this Forum. Good man and excellent repair person. First off, it had a warped drive wheel. Also had worn out axle bearings (both issues were on the drive pair). The axle gear was also replaced.  But it kind of escalated from there. USPS must have used it as a football. The box was dropped in shipping (both ways). Broke off the rear truck and flattened the tow bar. Bashed the front pilot and bent it. When dropped again, it broke off. Had to find a new pilot, paint it to match and replace it. Chuck fixed the rear truck. The movement of the worn drive pair was causing the shorts going over some swilches......some roller and some wheel to frog shorts. 

Sometimes the fix is easy.  This one was not

Roger

Thanks for the update Roger... that was quite a journey... I hope mine isn't anywhere near that troublesome !

I may have to look Chuck Sartor up sometime... where is he located ?

I have my limitations in know-how and patience, although I do like figuring things out and fixing them on my own when possible !

Airmojo,

Chuck is located in Colorado.

Is that engine tripping a breaker or.......stalling (actually, shifting into neutral). If it's the second case, most of the time it's a relatively benign thing. Steamers rattling around over a switch produces lots of movement underneath. A wheel (often in the pilot truck or trailing truck) taps the frog. Stops it.  Or a roller tapping one of the ground rails. Look for sparks or.......pitting on a rail.  Judiciously placed pieces of electrical tape solves those. You can experiment with the tape and when you find the spot(s) take the tape off and paint on some Super Glue (works the same).   Some engines just don't like switches.

Roger

It shifts into neutral, and then I have to hit the direction button on my KW, and it goes in the opposite direction, but will shift into neutral in either direction after passing over a turnout switch, but not all the time... it runs fine when I lock it into the forward direction.

I'll have to try the tape on the turnout switches... I remember seeing a photo someone posted on your thread.

I mainly ran this 736 on another track that is just an oval with passenger cars and a Railsounds tender... had what I thought was issues with the e-unit when I tried to set it to only go in the forward direction... I fooled around with the e-unit, taking it apart and cleaning, etc... turns out I wasn't "setting" it properly to keep it going in the desired direction until I read this page in an old "How to Operate Lionel Trains and Accessories" 64 page little book that I picked up at a train show...  I guess I always assumed that the e-unit could be set to accomplish this, but apparently not because this procedure works great... duh !

Here is a scan of the page... I picked up another 736 locomotive at a local antique show at a good price, and it works great... I decided to put things back together on the original 736 and tested it on my outer track that has turnout switches, mainly for parking trains, so I can run other trains on it.

If it happens on particular switches, you have to locate the offending spots. Time consuming. You have to watch the engine as it passes over the switch. You'll see the wheels (usually in the trucks) rattling back and forth. Look for sparks. Then start with large pieces of tape. If it stops stalling, reduce the size of the tape strip until you've covered the spot with a small piece.    You can even push/pull the engine over the switch. If it's only happening over switches, this may be your issue. I hope so......cheap fix. 

Another thing to consider (also easy fix) is a loose e-unit attachment screw or......a loose lever. If the lever is loose, I jam a thin piece of styrene behind it to tighten it (creates much better contact). 

Ah, works.

  If wheels weren't the sole issue... (I could easily see some craziness with the height, tracking, angle changes; level of roller etc.. my wobblers actually run pretty well without any issues {other than one overheated E-unit finger that curls upward easy and cools that way somedays. Wait 5 min to a week  and its fine again} .

..... and had you not only pulled the swivel up raising the whole point rails to prevent rocking, but pushed to too, it might have gone differently. Had you pushed it down also it might have cleared up somewhat on that alone. 

  I didn't re-scan this whole thread or recall my own words verbatim and the important thing is you are running again and though no fun then, you have a good beer&BS story to rant with now, eh!... but my thought in it tilting almost certainly was concerned with them being too high or too low, but too high would be where I'd expect shorts more often.  

  Sounds like a hi-lo got smashed it with two wheels while turning around maybe?

😠 Always sucks... but ...

   Ever see Nashvilles airport when the countries shipping transfers all arrive "at once", get unloaded, "switching" moves are done, reloading, and the planes are airborne again asap? All over and done with in lighting speed and hopefully precision. It's like watching bees, schools of fish crossing paths, or Asian "Zen driving" where signals don't exist and its all about merging skills.

Like walking busy halls of a high school where everybody is racing a bell with huge stack of books and papers due they don't want to drop.

... oh man, I dropped a single sheet..what to do?

  You gotta keep going if you only lost 1 of many. Stopping etc. in the wrong place could easily upset things far beyond most items values.    

I'd never ship a shell today if I could avoid it.  Just the motor/frame alone.

  No insurance on it?   

The engine was sent back and forth 2 times. The second time, I stripped it down to the frame. I did have priority mail insurance on it, but didn’t file a claim. Wasn’t sure how much of a hassle that would prove to be, so I ate it.  But the costs we’re getting close to what I paid for it.  Wheel issues can be expensive

   Presswork takes tools, time, & parts that like anything else add up.

  But the payoff is the lifespan you may not have (but should have ) considered before your initial buy has now expired; the stopwatch reset. 

 Actually I think I have enough enough confidence in most of the folks around here to be able to do all but some "trick" jobs. Chuck makes the grade easy; smart, open, broadly experienced. 

  I seldom concede to the "I can't theory". There is only haven't; couldn't; shouldn't. The two former are opportunities, the later?; Well..ok. I won't go near the Ocean again without a vest and yet I have swam miles at a time across lakes. ..Same kinda thing 

  I need a full 2037 rebuild, for sure the magnetraction bushings & gearing done, maybe a post too. Im beginning to wonder.... though not for sale (no supply left ANYWHERE 'i' can find), I haven't asked around for techs  that may have some saving them for repair work.  "I'd pay him the nominal service charge" for the work. But I kind of want to do the work myself, bonus for them. This one is special; not running; but here every day of my life. 

 Nice used?🤔😣😕😒..o.k. how much?

  My intent wasn't a hi-jack though it kinda ends there. But a point as to how I feel confident about the things a hobbiest can possibly do for themselves. 

  IMO folks too often panic slightly or rush while assessing something a few times and develop a lack of confidence of sorts, or had never been allowed to explore their mechanical abilities due to that same lack of confidence within "folks in charge" during the oppotune moments for that person, and the next thing you know... "I can't"....

...I say haven't... yet! 

  75% of my young assistants had this problem when they would start.

  Ive had 4 contact me later in life like I was an fav. old teacher... I guess I was, but "slow down".