Lionel Quality

I like and appreciate postwar very much Dan, but Lionel DID have a pretty good size service network... there must have been a reason for that.

There was very good article in the other train magazine about the service stations and what they has to fix right out of the box. You might want to read it as it was very enlightening.

As for todays technology, TMCC is a bit under 25 years old and my NYC GP7/P runs as well today as it did back in 1995. It does not get as much run time, quite frankly, because the new stuff just keeps my interest longer and runs even better.

Charlie

With built to order trains, especially their two thousand dollar future paper weight engines which today have no spare parts and rotting die cast, there's no chance they will be around then.

The same can be said of a lot of the junk sold today.  The houses, cars, appliances, tools - not worth fixing.  I seriously doubt today's Lionel trains will be around except in a museum but I am not worried about it. I won't be either.

I like and appreciate postwar very much Dan, but Lionel DID have a pretty good size service network... there must have been a reason for that.

Salesmanship / customer relations. If Postwar Lionel trains were unreliable, would the service stations have been able to keep up with the work? Certainly there were trains to be fixed. But were the repairs due to factory defects, poor design, customer misuse, or just plain old wear? I think there was a decent business in annual tune-ups. (Another service - correcting problems created by home tune-ups). According to some material I've seen, stores became service stations to draw people. Come in for a free check-up or an inexpensive tune-up, and leave with a few new items for the train set.

There was very good article in the other train magazine about the service stations and what they has to fix right out of the box. You might want to read it as it was very enlightening.

I missed that story. If anybody knows the specific issue, I'd appreciate knowing.

Your best to just enjoy and use your trains. Don't worry how long they will be around. 

As much as I enjoy the new command engines and features that they have, I do appreciate the quality and engineering that went into the older lionel products of the period. 

In 2005, I purchased a 1953 engine to run around the Christmas tree for the kids (and me, I guess). I cleaned & oiled it up  and the locomotive worked flawlessly. It even started to smoke without adding any pellets. I was impressed and thought how many THINGS do I have that will work this well in 50 years from now?  In only 12 years, I have a lot of items that never came close to making that list.

At least with me, there is also some comforting feeling that the simplicity of the designs would also allow me to repair simple problems. They were designed to be serviced or at least taken back apart. The parts for most old trains seem to be reasonably priced and available. 

As much as I enjoy my vision line Hudson, if I could only hand down one of my engines to my children it would be the 1953 Hudson! Certainly not an easy decision but I would feel confident it will probably still run in 2055. 

jim911 posted:

Your best to just enjoy and use your trains. Don't worry how long they will be around. 

Yeah, I have that same philosophy when it comes to all my purchases, including my $250k Bentley, my $28k Rolex, my $6k bespoke suits. I always buy top of the market products and don't really care at all if they last a decade or a day!  

wmcwood posted:

 

As much as I enjoy my vision line Hudson, if I could only hand down one of my engines to my children it would be the 1953 Hudson! Certainly not an easy decision but I would feel confident it will probably still run in 2055. 

I understand that by paying a fortune today for these locomotives, we expect quality - I do. But that's different than the value of the product being integrally tied to its longevity. Assuming my children find any value in any of this stuff, I think I'd want to give them the locomotives that provided us with the most fun memories or that have the most fun features. Similarly, if I had a Lincoln town car that still ran great and a Boss 429 with rust and in need of a rear end and transmission, I think I'd sell the Lincoln and give my children the Boss 429. 

a Bentley with whistle steam! interesting

jim911 posted:

a Bentley with whistle steam! interesting

... and the steam feature broke by the time I drove it 2 miles.  But who cares?  The seller got fat off my hard-earned dollars and, yes, I truly enjoyed the steam feature while it lasted. That's what counts!  

A big difference between Postwar and modern electric trains is that PW could be fixed by the owner or someone familiar with motors, whereas modern trains with their myriad electronic boards either have to be gutted and boards replaced, or upgraded with new technology ($$), or as I suspect happens to some, thrown out.

I hear different opinions on various manufacturers' quality, kind of depends which train shop I go to so its difficult to gauge if there's bias one way or another. My personal experience with modern electric trains of the past two decades (can't believe its been that long) is that QC hasn't gotten better, but it comes down to customer service and Lionel generally has been very good.

Just thinking back then how those trains were run by the kids .

Lionel and Marx and some others were somewhat abused by kids and did not have the electronic boards and such so they could take the abuse.

Now a days they could not unless supervised by the adult.

The quality of outside detail for sure has improved, inside the shell it has gotten much more complicated as there are more bells and whistles involved but very enjoyable to run hear and watch them.

Paul Kallus posted:

A big difference between Postwar and modern electric trains is that PW could be fixed by the owner or someone familiar with motors, whereas modern trains with their myriad electronic boards either have to be gutted and boards replaced, or upgraded with new technology ($$), or as I suspect happens to some, thrown out.

I hear different opinions on various manufacturers' quality, kind of depends which train shop I go to so its difficult to gauge if there's bias one way or another. My personal experience with modern electric trains of the past two decades (can't believe its been that long) is that QC hasn't gotten better, but it comes down to customer service and Lionel generally has been very good.

One way to keep the newer electronically loaded beasts running, when the electronics crap out may be to simply remove all of the circuit boards, find a direct route from the motors to the track and run 'em quietly.  

As far as modern stuff goes, I'd take TMCC locos from the mid 2000's over the newest stuff any day.

Of the modest 8 Lionel pieces I own the only ones that haven't been apart for the smoke unit or some other issue, are my mohawk and 0-8-0 from 2005. I just put em on the track and run em.

Coincidentially, these are also the only 2 locos I have with smoke unit fans and electrocouplers that make absolutely no noise.

What's missing from this discussion is the vast increase in both detail, features and technology in today's Lionel locomotives versus the PW generation. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

As consumers, we have demanded an increased level of detail, features and technology in new products and, unfortunately, along with that (and inflation) come higher prices; the decreased ability to make our own repairs; and maybe a slight decrease in QC.

A 2017 Boss Mustang costs a lot more than that 1970 Boss 429 ever did and, while I could fix pretty much anything on that 429, there probably isn't much I could fix on today's Mustang.

I don't think Lionel should be treated any differently from any other manufacturer and, frankly, IMHO I appreciate their continuing to push the technology envelope; working to increase QC;  and their willingness to try and correct any product issues that do arise, such as the new 2-6-0 Legacy Mogul.  

I don't have any past experience with the manufacturers as all of my trains, track and accessories are modern. That being said, it really irks me to buy something that doesn't work straight out of the box. Over the summer I bought 4 of the Christmas Fastrack Girder Bridge (6-81249) to use on our layout and it doesn't matter if you clean them, bend the pins, clip them...the power cuts out intermittently. At York I bought the Christmas Red Floodlight Tower (6-82746), hooked it up to the transformer and nothing. It's a plug and play item that comes with an adapter to wire conventionally and when that didn't work, I just cut the wire to put the red on red and black on black....nada. All of these items were "specials" from the retailers which makes me wonder if they are flawed to begin with, although it seems counterintuitive to for a retailer to try and dump poor product on a customer they want to come back.

You know, it's not the $130 I spent so much as it is that I like the items and want to use them on my layout. But I'm not going to try and fix everything that comes out of a box, or return everything each time I buy it for a replacement that might work. My money and time both have value and my desire is to run my friggin' trains over a ravine with Christmas bridges intact and then park the darn thing in a yard lit up by the towering lights. That was my expectation when I traded my cash for their product. 

I know some think this is just a forum for complaining, and I am complaining, but I feel duped when this stuff happens.  Funny, but I don't buy anything else in my life where I wonder while taking it out of the box whether or not it will work. How strange that I've come to accept my purchases for the train layout might not work when I get them.

Paul Kallus posted:

A big difference between Postwar and modern electric trains is that PW could be fixed by the owner or someone familiar with motors, whereas modern trains with their myriad electronic boards either have to be gutted and boards replaced, or upgraded with new technology ($$), or as I suspect happens to some, thrown out.

I hear different opinions on various manufacturers' quality, kind of depends which train shop I go to so its difficult to gauge if there's bias one way or another. My personal experience with modern electric trains of the past two decades (can't believe its been that long) is that QC hasn't gotten better, but it comes down to customer service and Lionel generally has been very good.

Paul - not disagreeing, but are we talking apples to apples?  The Lionel locomotive I had as a child was a small plastic thing with a whoo whoo whistle and two speeds - fast and faster.

If we're focusing only on Lionel, I'd say we should be looking at their bargain basement sets and see how they compare to all the post war stuff people are lamenting over - given that stuff had mostly cast-in detail and the mechanics of my little plastic locomotive.  I'll admit that neither post war nor modern bargain basement is my area of expertise, but I do believe the modern bargain basement Lionel locomotives have one simple circuit board, cast-in detail, metal gears and metal rotating parts, are die cast, and run much more smoothly and realistically.  So, taking all that together, I think the current bargain basement stuff is likely tougher and works better, with overall a same or better level of ruggedness - but susceptible to needing a circuit board replaced. 

I will say, however, that my little plastic Southern Express locomotive, after being run and run and run, and then sitting in a drawer for 30+ years still worked when I found it and applied power - although it looks like crap because any detail that was on this plastic thing cracked off eons ago. 

A 2017 Boss Mustang costs a lot more than that 1970 Boss 429 ever did and, while I could fix pretty much anything on that 429, there probably isn't much I could fix on today's Mustang.

There is a big difference. On average, your 2017 Boss Mustang will be more reliable than a 1970 Boss Mustang and will require less service.
For example, when will the spark plugs need to be changed?

And if you want to do your own work, parts are available for many years.

Here is an example that comes to mind: Do any of the toy train manufacturers use a quality motor for their smoke unit fans? The failure of this part seems to be common across all brands. (Maybe there is no such motor available)

Paul - not disagreeing, but are we talking apples to apples?  The Lionel locomotive I had as a child was a small plastic thing with a whoo whoo whistle and two speeds - fast and faster.

If we're focusing only on Lionel, I'd say we should be looking at their bargain basement sets and see how they compare to all the post war stuff people are lamenting over - given that stuff had mostly cast-in detail and the mechanics of my little plastic locomotive.

Your childhood locomotive was probably from the lower end of the spectrum of Lionel's product line.
Yes, it should be compared to the low end of Lionel's current product line.

Lionel sold lots of those inexpensive trains. They also sold a lot of higher priced ones.

The BIG difference between PW and current stuff are  can motors and cheap electronics  (throwaways) VS easily reparable Pulmors and mechanical E units,,,,,,,,,,,,,,PW trains were built to last a lifetime and then some... 

Joe

To me, Post War trains were good for that era, nice, heavy, fun to hold, ok to run..and the F3's, 726's,736's, GG1's, FM's, GP7's, GP9's, of the 50's, 60's were great runners, but, compared to the modern TMCC/Legacy operation, I prefer the control of the newer  trains. (I Love the Bells and Whistles) Yes, some have issues, however, many do not. My bets on the latest and greatest....I think quality control is coming back as thats what it will take for us to keep buying the BTO order system.  Yes, prices are at an all time high, and we sometimes have to say No, but for the most part, the trains we buy Today  will last for many many years down the road.  Its all about technology.....Thank you for this thread....Therefore, I have no complaints as Lionel or my local dealers will take good care of me. 

There is a big difference. On average, your 2017 Boss Mustang will be more reliable than a 1970 Boss Mustang and will require less service.
For example, when will the spark plugs need to be changed?
And if you want to do your own work, parts are available for many years.

There's a big difference between initial quality and long-term reliability. Today's new cars suffer from initial quality failures at a higher rate than most people think because it may not affect them - ask a Subaru owner how their battery's been holding up lately or how many millions of new cars owners had recalls recently because of airbag failures. If you ever read Consumer Reports you'll see that within their first few pages there's a laundry list of recalls and failures. I'm guessing Lionel's initial quality percentages are in line with other product manufacturers - it's just that because we're all part of the same fraternity, we see it differently. 

As to long-term reliability, I think the jury's still out. My guess is the new train products will be about the same, although with increased use of electronic technology, we may have to change how we store and take care of them.

You may be able to get parts for that '70 Boss 429 because a cottage industry has developed for those cars and many parts were used across many models, but I'm guessing if I need an exclusive part for my 1970 Galaxie, I'm probably out of luck unless my local junk yard has one. 

I love realistic 2 rail track, scale wheels, scenery, etc but this week I pulled out an old postwar set and made a figure 8 from tubular track on the floor. I had a blast with it. All of my postwar Lionel works perfectly. Some of it had taken a beating but it always works. I've got a Lionel SD70ACe that has less than an hour of run time over the past 5 years but the sound board went out. Its out of warranty. My personal holy grail engine is the 700e Hudson. Not the Vision line version but the original prewar version. My interests conflict sometimes. 

"Today's new cars suffer from initial quality failures at a higher rate than most people think because it may not affect them - ask a Subaru owner how their battery's been holding up lately or how many millions of new cars owners had recalls recently because of airbag failures." 

You're right - my 1972 Demon 340 never had an airbag recall. Its ABS was dead reliable, too.

What? Oh.

Modern automobiles are superior in every way to the old stuff when comparing the systems (engine, suspension, driveline, brakes, bearings, alignment, comfort, heat/cooling) that they both shared. When is the last time that you had to have your front-end aligned on your modern car, for example?

But I drove a million safe miles without ABS, 27 airbags, engine check lights (I looked at the gauges, duh - oh yeah, we had gauges, at least in my Chrysler products) and a plethora of interconnected systems. I question the value of many - not all - of them.

Common sense is still a valuable thing - which is why I have not and will not go beyond TMCC with my control system. It may not do all that everyone wants to do, but it does so for me. It has been very reliable. What you don't have (Legacy; ABS; smoking crew members) cannot fail.

Reading through some of the posts above, it seems that some have taken offense to the fact that we who enjoy post war trains are knocking the new stuff.  That wasn't my intent.  No, today's trains cannot be compared directly to Post-War trains.  They are indeed two different fruits.....LOL  

Let me give one particular example.  In the late '90s I made an attempt to return to "O" gauge Lionel after almost a decade away from them.  I had sold all of the stuff I had collected through the seventies and eighties.  I purchased the new culvert loader and unloader set.  I installed it on my layout and began to attempt to operate the pair.  What a disappointment.  Even after reading all of the possible adjustments and minor fixes, operation was terrible.  

Fast forward to the last couple of years.  I have now been re-collecting Post-War trains and operating accessories.  I still have no layout at this point but do have a test track and the ability to test each piece I buy.  I have been able, without much difficulty, to make adjustments, obtain spare parts and get everything in tip top shape for my upcoming layout.  I did initially purchase some second hand newer locomotives with modern electronics, but have since sold them in favor of buying Post-War locos.  

With me, it's just the fact that I can still have ZWs and 1033s to operate my GG1s, Berkshires, GP7s, etc. without having to worry about frying a PCB or some small detail popping off.  I'm a bit older and want simple.  My upcoming layout will be and operating accessory showcase with minimal scenery.  I've done the detailed thing in my younger days.  Now I just want to play trains. 

Ted Bertiger posted:

...

Once the spare parts are gone from the newer stuff, you are basically SOL. I should know, can't get a replacement smoke stack for a Lionel engine that is 4 years old.

And yet we have folks salivating over the new VL Niagara without any care for the very real scenario you're describing.  

Very sad direction in which our products are moving -- not just toy trains.  I purchased a new LED desktop lamp a few months ago at Staples.  After setting it up and reading the owners guide, I was shocked to read there is no replacement bulb.  You just go out and buy another complete lamp.   WTF???  

I think a lot of trains purchased during the post war years may not have been run to the extent we run ours.  Sure they were beat up by kids who "played" with them Adams Family style but actual run time was probably low compared to today.  Just an observation regarding why post war trains may still be running today.  That and they can be fixed and maintained fairly easily.

Dan, I totally agree that for many post war engines, accessories, repair parts are available, if not through Lionel directly, many companies that were repair centers like Hennings Trains, Trainworld, Charles Ro,  Trainland, Grzyboski’s, Legacy Station,  many other family owned businesses, and a friend of mine, Sherman Leonard, George Tebolt, Brasseur Trains, and Roundhouse Hobbies in Louisville, Ky. But, you still have old technology, although fun to see and operate, it’s not in the same cart as the newer highly advanced products of Today. So, I am not knocking those who prefer post war products, they were the beginning of this wonderful hobby, as kids, this was what turned us on. Wow, those Lionel and American Flyer catalogs from 1946 through 1966 were a big factor in keeping the hobby alive. So, you can see that post war trains are very significant to our loving toy trains. 

Although Post War trains are easily fixed up, it’s my thoughts that many of these newer trains will also be repairable, and I admit, the new bells, whistles, smoking whistle effects, swinging bells, backdraft effects, cylinder smoke effect, and now the newer scoop effects tender, and on and on....are much more enjoyable to see with nice scenic effects. Everyone views this multifaceted hobby differently, that’s the fun of the hobby. Also the new passenger cars with people, talking diners, cars with cameras, fun, yes fun. Operating those accessories with our cab 1 or 2 controllers, and now, Bluetooth....It’s fun to play with these trains in modern ways. This is called progress, it’s the best of times in the hobby, that’s my feelings.

Yes our cars are better made, safer, tires are better, sound systems better, and yes, Navigation...It’s the best of times, cars, homes, security systems, and Yes, the price is higher in everything we look at. Taxes, always changing.  (I represent American Honda Automobiles for 25 years)

David, your comments are correct, however, did I read in a thread a few months ago that you were having a layout BTO...This is progress, and a big time saver, and will be very nice to see. Correct me if I am wrong, this hobby is more fun because of the people involved, the good friends we make along the way....Everything is better today, the magazines, the videos, and This OGR Forum....

Just for the record, I purchased a slightly used NYC S-1 Diesel Electric, made in 2003 or 2004, 6-18351...Parts still available from Lionel, So, maybe all parts are not, but many are.  My layout, which is not large, is dated 1997 through today. I like the Command Operation from Lionel.  Great Thread, Thank You.

One little correction.  6-18351 is a NYC S motor.  All electric.  Nothing diesel about it.  Great little locomotive. 

I really don't know why people today don't think the "old timers"  didn't have fun back in the 30s, 40s & 50s.  We entertained ourselves with whatever our parents could afford or we could scrounge up. Just look around today, everywhere you go, including automobiles, sidewalks, restaurants, anywhere-people have their face stuck in to some mobile device being entertained-such as it is.  Everything today is made to be disposable, not repairable because it takes smarts and some skill to repair things. The ultimate insult to human's  diminished brainpower are the self-driving cars they are working feverishly to build. As dumb-downed as driving is today they are trying hard to go further. I have watched the modern stuff at train shows and some of it is boring, tacky and not very impressive.

C W Burfle posted:

Paul - not disagreeing, but are we talking apples to apples?  The Lionel locomotive I had as a child was a small plastic thing with a whoo whoo whistle and two speeds - fast and faster.

If we're focusing only on Lionel, I'd say we should be looking at their bargain basement sets and see how they compare to all the post war stuff people are lamenting over - given that stuff had mostly cast-in detail and the mechanics of my little plastic locomotive.

Your childhood locomotive was probably from the lower end of the spectrum of Lionel's product line.
Yes, it should be compared to the low end of Lionel's current product line.

Lionel sold lots of those inexpensive trains. They also sold a lot of higher priced ones.

As usual, you've completely missed the point.  The point was that, to my knowledge, even the higher-end PW locomotives had features that were at best equal to the features of the basic Lionel set sold today.  If we compare PW to today's basic Lionel set, I think today's basic set locomotive, with its die cast shell, metal components, better features, and slow speed operation, compares favorably in terms of parts quality and ruggedness - minus the circuit board which is the one part more susceptible to crapping out. 

Yes! Give me simplicity. Trains that I've grown up with were never disposable. I will admit, I got bit by the hi-tech train bug once, but after several out of the box failures left me frustrated and disappointed. I'm back to postwar and so is my enjoyment, right back where I started from.

Sorry but every piece of postwar i owned as a child worked flawlessly.  Engines, operating cars, switch tracks,  stations, xmfrs, everything.   

30 years later I took them out of the closet to show my wife.  Guess what, everything still worked perfectly.   I never knew they shouldn't work.

I like post war.  I love the new trains.  I know why some people put down modern electronics.  They can use whatever statement makes them happy.  Post war can be fixed by anyone.  No real skill needed.  It usually works every time.  When fixed, you still have an  AC motor that does not match the trains of today.  As for operating, not in the ball park with modern trains.   We are at a great time in the hobby as each person can buy and  run what he likes and enjoy it.  I still have my Southern F-3 from Christmas 1954.  I gave it a spin on the layout and it still runs.

People always talk about getting kids into trains.  Kids today want command and I Phone operation.  I am a huge fan of DCS and Legacy operation.   People who introduce kids to the great world of the trains of today will usually agree.  Lionel sells many LionChief Plus items.    I am also a MODERN Tinplate guy.  In my book nothing is as cool as a 263E or a 752  with smoke and sound.  Not to mention great paint jobs.

One thing I know both modern and postwar guys still like to use the old ZW transformer.   It was great in it's day.  I am not a fan of running any trains with a transformer that was made in the middle of the last century.  Great choices we all have today with the high output transformers available.

We'll he did say he bought a $625,000 car and a $28,000 watch and doesn't care if they last a decade or a day.  He kind of lost me there.  So, I wouldn't get bent about any other comment made.

William 1 posted:

We'll he did say he bought a $625,000 car and a $28,000 watch and doesn't care if they last a decade or a day.  He kind of lost me there.  So, I wouldn't get bent about any other comment made.

It was sarcasm...  I was responding to the post that said something like "don't worry about how long your trains last, just enjoy them while they work." 

PJB posted:

jim911 posted:

Your best to just enjoy and use your trains. Don't worry how long they will be around. 

Yeah, I have that same philosophy when it comes to all my purchases, including my $250k Bentley, my $28k Rolex, my $6k bespoke suits. I always buy top of the market products and don't really care at all if they last a decade or a day!  

Did you see what Paul Newman’s Rolex he wore when racing went for the other day???  $17.8 million

D500 posted:

"Today's new cars suffer from initial quality failures at a higher rate than most people think because it may not affect them - ask a Subaru owner how their battery's been holding up lately or how many millions of new cars owners had recalls recently because of airbag failures." 

You're right - my 1972 Demon 340 never had an airbag recall. Its ABS was dead reliable, too.

What? Oh.

Modern automobiles are superior in every way to the old stuff when comparing the systems (engine, suspension, driveline, brakes, bearings, alignment, comfort, heat/cooling) that they both shared. When is the last time that you had to have your front-end aligned on your modern car, for example?

But I drove a million safe miles without ABS, 27 airbags, engine check lights (I looked at the gauges, duh - oh yeah, we had gauges, at least in my Chrysler products) and a plethora of interconnected systems. I question the value of many - not all - of them.

Common sense is still a valuable thing - which is why I have not and will not go beyond TMCC with my control system. It may not do all that everyone wants to do, but it does so for me. It has been very reliable. What you don't have (Legacy; ABS; smoking crew members) cannot fail.

Guys - are you seriously taking my analogy and turning it into a debate about whether an old car lasts longer than a new car?   

If you read the post and my reply to it, I said:  "assuming my children find any value in any of this stuff, I think I'd want to give them the locomotives that provided us with the most fun memories or that have the most fun features. Similarly, if I had a Lincoln town car that still ran great and a Boss 429 with rust and in need of a rear end and transmission, I think I'd sell the Lincoln and give my children the Boss 429."

Meaning, to me, I value the joy toy trains bring to our lives.  And that joy has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the train that brought the most joy outlasts one of our other toy trains.