Lionel rolling stock stock numbering system

dobermann,

American Flyer freight cars built by Lionel will be numbered like 6-48xxx.

What system? Lionel numbers appear to be random and there is no discernable way that I know of to determine what is 027, traditional, or scale size. MTH is simple, 30-xxxx is Railking, 20-xxx is Premier period!

I have asked about this myself and I think the replies were that Lionel has no numbering system like MTH as Tom says above. Sure wish they did though. I think their sets and engines are Standard O for scale and Traditional for the smaller O-27 stuff, not 100% certain that is correct? Going to try and remember the 6-48xxx that Jim explained above, that's good to know.

This is why I tend to stick to Mth Premier and Atlas O Master series. I do buy scale Lionel rolling stock also, but I have to do more studying before purchasing.

Believe it or not, there actually was some thought when Lionel's 5 didgit numbering system was originally started around 1987.  164xx and 264xx are for the most part are traditional sized hoppers.  There has been a few threads about this, some of the earlier threads probably contain the orginal PN series charts.

But what started as a logical system has pretty much turned into a mess. More and more of the original PN series have filled up and PNs tend to be more random or the remamining numbers just used for anything.

Here is one group that should be in line with your interests are are easy to spot by their stock numbers.

During the MPC era, Lionel used a (4) digit numbering system, preceded by 6-

From 1974 to 1976 they offered a "Standard O" line of freight cars that were made from molds created by, and purchased from Pola of Germany.  These cars are scale, and have detailed metal sprung trucks.  15 cars were made in this series.

6-9801 to 6-9826 is the numbering sequence.

Ken

We (LHS) gave up trying to give customers a stock number clue on this topic.  Consequently, we suggest something that differentiates the LHS from buying on Ebay...

If you're unsure about anything regarding the Lionel products on the shelf, ask a sales associate at the Trains counter!  Especially if they're buying this for someone else as a gift, we try to determine whether the honoree's empire is of traditional or standard size.  We show them the difference in the display case of trains.  We select a couple of boxes from the shelf to show them the comparison.  If they're yet uncertain, we suggest accessories, buildings, figures, scenery materials...a gift certificate for $1,000!...etc.

It works well.

And, when our best efforts fall short, if they keep our store price tag on the box (and just line out the price, if necessary) the gift recipient is welcome to bring the item in for an exchange for something more appropriate.

Of course, this is always a good question for the Orange/Blue guys at their York tent/stadium events.   You know....instead of hokum, 'How come....?' Besides, it's that "guy thing"...questions/concerns about size!

KD

I think if the OP had been able to actually see the cars before he purchased them, he would have noticed that they were traditional (O-27) sized hoppers, and passed on them.

The way to differentiate on Ebay is to look at the space between the trucks, and the scale of the car body to the wheel. Traditional cars look to have HUGE wheels and the trucks are unusually close together.

You kind of get a feel for it when you look at an Ebay picture of a car you *KNOW* is scale, and compare it to the same type of car that's traditional.

Off the top of my head, traditional Lionel rolling stock used the following series:

160xx pass cars

161xx tank cars

162xx boxcars

163xx flat cars

164xx hoppers

165xx caboose

166xx oper cars

167xx oper cars

168xx Spc items but later accessories

169xx Flat/Gondolas

When a given series became full (i.e. hoppers) it would then go to 264xx etc

doberman, my advice is to always do a little reseach on line or with other train guys before you buy something, if you have any concerns or questions on a product.

Even Tom's point about MTH is a little flawed. While the 20- and 30- numbers do accurately reflect the Premiere and Railking product lines, they do not accurately reflect the scale proportion of the product. Railking was always semi-scale - typically larger than a Lionel semi-scale car, but still semi-scale.

Now that MTH has been using some of the older Premiere line dies for Railking products, many are scale sized, though still have the 30- number. If you really like the Railking scale and then unknowinly order an older Railking locomotive with a 30- number, you could be disappointed.

To further complicate things, MTH has the 33- Rugged Rails line. The Rugged Rails rolling stock are right on par size wise with the more traditionally sized Lionel products. The engines are from the smaller older Railking dies. Though they have not cataloged any separate sale Rugged Rails products in years, they still put them into train sets. So you can get a Railking Scale train set that could still have a much smaller Rugged Rails rolling stock car in the set, even if the set has a 30- number.

It's not just MTH. Lionel does this too. The recent CP Rail starter set has scale sized cars with an older MPC era tooling based locomotive. Or the BNSF set, which had larger semi-scale cars, but then came with a most definitely smaller SP-type caboose.

So regardless of a company's product numbering system, it still pays to to ask questions and compare photos of a item you are interested in.

KD's advice is well taken too. When I had a local shop that carried MTH, he had a display layout with all his different lines represented. When I'd see something I liked, I'd ask if we could put it on his layout so I could see the size of it versus other semi-scale cars. That meant sometimes I didn't buy. But it also meant, when I did buy, I was going to be a happy customer and give that dealer a good word to my friends.

If you think the one you received looks "small" for your liking, you should probably stick to purchasing Lionel's Standard O rolling stock (as opposed to their traditional O-Gauge rolling stock).

Look for rolling stock that are numbered "6-17xxx" or "6-27xxx".

The only time I find it hard to distinguish between MTH's Premier vs. Railking is for ore cars.  They're pretty much identical, and you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference (if any) while trains are rolling.  Aside from that, MTH Railking items are noticeably smaller than MTH Premier items -- similar to Lionel traditional O-Gauge compared to their scale-size offerings.

Now Jimmy's comment about American Flyer S-gauge is particularly important, as Lionel has been releasing more and more items in S-gauge that are VERY similar to its O-scale offerings (in terms of paint-scheme).  More than once I've been drawn to an item on eBay or in a dealer ad due to a low price-point -- only to find upon closer inspection/reading that the item is S-scale. 

Proceed with caution.

David

The reason I like Atlas....no dart board required.