Lionel's 21" Passenger cars - Reflection

In my opinion they have some plusses and too many minuses. They are scale and the graphics are excellent. the interiors look cheap and bare. Bare plastic seats and no people. I do not like plastic cars anyway. They seem too light even though they may track suitably. I buy Golden Gate Depot passenger cars only. Expensive? Quite expensive. Worth the price? Compared to what is out on the market, I would argue yes. Compare a Lionel scale car for approximately $150-$175 to a Golden Gate Depot scale car costing about $300. the GGD car is aluminum, great detail, very accurate, fabulous interior detail, great graphics, and they will hold their value in my opinion. Excellent model trains are not cheap. Would rather have one GGD set than 2 Lionel sets. I plan to sell all of my Lionel cars.

Hey Sam. Here are my "reflections" on the Lionel 21" passenger cars.

Disclaimer....the following is just my opinion; others may feel differently and that is OK.

When they were first issued, I went "all in" and bought a lot of them. Amtrak and all the Union Pacific top the list. Finally, I had scale passenger cars to run on my layout.

I had quite a few QC issues out of the box. Loose windows fell out, paint problems, internal lights and also the truck / coupler issue. I would wire the couplers together with tiny bell wire to keep them from uncoupling whenever they felt like it. So, I had a lot of disappointments.

Here is the kicker. I am sure by now; you have seen pictures of my layout in the magazine and other places. It is big and has a minimum curve of 088 with a lot of 096 and 0104.

I thought the 21" passenger cars just looked a little silly on my curves. My opinion. I tried to like them but no dice. Couple that to the fact of all the QA problems and I decided to sell all of them. Keep in mind, these were a lot of the first run of 21" cars. Maybe the newer ones have better QA.

I had collected a lot of the Lionel and MTH 18" length cars over the years. After packing them all up for sale, I unpacked them and put them back on the layout and display shelves. The 21" cars were gone to new owners. I have no problem with running these "shorter" cars and for me, they look good on the curves. Heck, I even run the Lionel 15" aluminum passenger cars too.

So, I will ask. Are you looking at the 21" cars just for that reason of scale? Do you have a layout with really big curves? For me, those 21" cars going around 088 really hung over, I would imagine that on 076 track, it would look a little strange. Here is another funny thing. I have 89' boxcars and auto racks. I run them with no problems and somehow, they do not look so bad.

Just my reflections, not trying to start an argument.

Donald

Sam, I don't think the trucks are an issue. They are the same as the 18" cars without the couplers. The issue with the couplers is they didn't work when backing up. OK going forward. I agree they have cheap interiors and not worth the price.

I have one set but won't buy anymore. Pretty sure GGD has not done UP Heritage streamliners so not many options if you want something prototypical.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Sam, I don't think the trucks are an issue. They are the same as the 18" cars without the couplers. The issue with the couplers is they didn't work when backing up. OK going forward. I agree they have cheap interiors and not worth the price.

I have one set but won't buy anymore. Pretty sure GGD has not done UP Heritage streamliners so not many options if you want something prototypical.

Pete

1. While I have really had no major issue with the couplers on the two sets I have (1st run Texas Special and later UP Excursion cars), there are too many downsides to be completely enthusiastic about the general run of these. Too many of the cars, especially in the first run, are generic in terms of the body shells, and the interiors need work to try to bring them up to Lionel's past standards. So, I am in the camp that wouldn't buy another one beyond what I have got - unless Lionel came up with a car I really want, and offhand I can't think what that might be.

2.  OTOH, there are a few significant upsides in (1) the StationSounds dining cars, which Lionel did very well in terms of the sound sets, (2) Excursion dome cars, which have accurate domes that I don't think have been done before, and (3) the Business Cars, Lone Star and Kenefik, not made on scale sizes before. But these also have some design and assembly issues.

3.  To my personal everlasting regret, AFAIK Scott Mann/GGD never did any of the UP Excursion cars. I don't know but maybe there was a licensing issue; anyway, if you want the UP Excursion cars, Lionel is the only option. Scott's compensated for that with the GGD SP Daylight cars now in production, which are featured on another thread. I think that these are the height of O scale passenger cars being made now, and worth the price.

I have to agree with this ^.  In most cases, the GGD cars are the best non-brass scale cars out there now, followed by the old K-Line 21" cars.  In plastic, the Atlas California Zephyr cars are terrific, much better than the Lionel cars, but Atlas only made that one train.  Most of the Lionel cars are not anywhere near prototypical.  K-Line made somewhat generic cars, but they also did make them appear mostly prototypical for the car types they were modeling, with minor divergences in the window arrangements and skirting.  Lionel has done some really bad stuff with these passenger cars like the domes on that Wabash set, just comically wrong.  And dome cars on trains like the Southern Pacific Lark?  Why?

I have the Norfolk Southern 21" excursion set.

Overall great passenger cars, very happy I bought them. QC was not bad, paint was applied well but there were minor scuffs

I hear there were extensive QC issues on early runs

True,.... the tooling is generic

A couple of my favorite features are the flush fitting windows, full scale length, and flicker free capacitor

Interior is cheap and needs help, definitely worth painting and detailing

I highly recommend installing kaydee scale couplers. 3D printed mounts available online

@Norton posted:

Sam, I don't think the trucks are an issue. They are the same as the 18" cars without the couplers. The issue with the couplers is they didn't work when backing up. OK going forward. I agree they have cheap interiors and not worth the price.

I have one set but won't buy anymore. Pretty sure GGD has not done UP Heritage streamliners so not many options if you want something prototypical.

Pete

GGD did do the UP City of Portland? [ex ToT]

I bought the UP excursion set, plus several add-on cars for a total of 10 cars, including the Station Sounds Diner and Theater Car. The plan is to use them with the UP Heritage Locomotives and UP4014.

The obvious plus is they're scale length. They also track well and are of good weight so they can be pulled by one or two locomotives without issue depending on how many you're using. The hi-rail couplers have a feature that brings them in closer on straight track to give a better appearance.

The minuses are the interiors are unpainted plastic -- seats and floors, though the seating arrangements look pretty good. Fortunately, they don't have passengers since it would make it more difficult to finish the interiors. This particular set has "tube-style" diaphragms made from hard plastic that fortunately don't touch -- I would have preferred rubber tubing.

Based on the retail pricing for the cars (I didn't pay retail), they'll save you some money over aluminum or super-detailed cars, but then you get less detail. If they offer a CNW set (regular passenger or business train) I'll pick up a set.

Now that I'm retired, I have the following plans for the cars:

• Shave off the plastic tube diaphragms and replace them with the ones from Scale City Designs.
• Fix the loose windows with canopy glue.
• Paint the interiors to a realistic color (I have the data on the UP excursion prototypes).
• Add passengers.
• Kadee Couplers
• Battery powered lighting rather than track power. Don't know what I'm going to do with the Generator Car, Station Sounds Diner and Theater Car.
• Scale Wheels.

Matt, I made my own replacement diaphrams with styrene tube backed up with I beam, then moved the couplers back .200". Tedious but not that hard.

Curve, I model modern day UP not period. GGD missed the boat on these.

Pete

I only have one, the Norfolk Southern theater car and do not care about the truck/couplers as it will be two-railed eventually. As for interiors, eh, so many of my much-older Walthers cars do not have any and I do not miss them. The only advantage, to me anyway, to adding passengers would be the added weight; always a plus.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

GGD did do the UP City of Portland? [ex ToT]

Well, that was just 4 cars that were later repainted into UP colors and used in the pool of cars mainly in use between Seattle and Portland (sometimes nicknamed the "City of Seattle," I believe, but not an official named train - it just had a number, and the car types varied).  The original set was in General Motors blue with a matching E7A.  The original blue version is a very attractive set from GGD, known as "The Train of Tomorrow."

GGD has yet to make a UP named train, like the "City of Portland."  K-Line did make just about all of the car types as part of its 21" City of Los Angeles cars, including the unique dome diner and dome observation.  The K-Line cars are fairly representative of the prototype, so if you swapped the drumhead on the observation car, you could have a City of Portland train, instead of the City of LA.

@Cogen1981 posted:

I have the Norfolk Southern 21" excursion set.

Overall great passenger cars, very happy I bought them. QC was not bad, paint was applied well but there were minor scuffs . .

Interior is cheap and needs help, definitely worth painting and detailing

This is a fine example of what can be done with the raw material of the otherwise dull and unpopulated interiors of these ABS cars. I don't have one of the full dome cars, but based on what I have seen of them, the excellent sounds go some way to make up for the fact that everything that is visible through the windows is so plain.

There have been numerous threads on improving these cars, starting way back when @Alex M simply used rattle can and brush paints to color up the interiors of the original ESE set and put in passengers. But frankly, it's a kind of a never-ending challenge to make these cars live up to expectations or potential. The later runs of them, especially the UP Excursion cars, have more prototypical interiors - or at least some do. Best examples IMHO, from what I have, are the City of San Francisco dome observation car and the Business Cars.

I'm only showing what I have done with one of the latter, the Lone Star, to illustrate what can be done IF you are prepared to devote the time and add separately applied features. OK, I went hog wild on this, but the interior of the car is huge and cried out for detailing, without which much of the factory work is wasted.

I actually cut out and replaced a considerable number of the original one-piece molded parts to allow for what I decided to do, the idea being to create a car fit for railroad barons. In the end, it did not really come out that way, but it's my railroad and some whimsical elements got included.

This car has a forward section with kitchen, crew room and dining area and a rear section with an exercise room, staterooms, bathroom and an observation compartment. Both sections were modified to take out a number of molded-in features and substitute separately applied ones:

Skipping out all of the intermediate steps, the compartments were furnished and color and extra LED lighting (a lot) added:

In the end, the dining compartment got the biggest treatment, and in the observation section I mocked up (in acrylic putty with a flocked finish, which also went on the dining chairs) the vast serpentine sofa that was in the actual car at one stage:

To me, the kitchen turned out best of all, because - although it isn't a replica of the original - it tries to echo Pullman-Standard stainless steel diner kitchens of the classic streamliner era. The crew room got some no doubt un-prototypical creature comforts:

There are also exterior features added, including illuminated marker lights, modeling those that were installed on the car on a California excursion of yesteryear. I also substituted the 4014 Excursion badge in the stock drumhead, as best I could, but my mock-up of the GPS antenna on the roof is pretty crude (although all of the Excursion cars have something like this); the roof vent over the kitchen came out better:

At the end of this project, I decided that I was spending way too much time on customizing individual cars if I ever intended to finish a whole train. So I think that for the time being I will concentrate on cars that require much less upgrading.

P.S. @c.sam you have no lack of responses now!

Incredible work @cogen1981 and @Hancock52 but when you have over 20 of these cars a single train can be a hobby in itself.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Incredible work @cogen1981 and @Hancock52 but when you have over 20 of these cars a single train can be a hobby in itself.

Pete

All too true - especially if there are also QC/assembly/accident issues to deal with! I've had a few lately, but that's another story.

I have the Amtrak dome car.  It is generic, but I only paid $80 for it so in that sense I think it was a good value.  Add some figures to it, touch up the interior and it will be a nice car.

To be honest, I have not run the dome car yet.  If I ever get back to my 3 rail club I will be running it to see how it works.  Honest feedback then.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I have the Amtrak dome car.  It is generic, but I only paid $80 for it so in that sense I think it was a good value.  Add some figures to it, touch up the interior and it will be a nice car.

To be honest, I have not run the dome car yet.  If I ever get back to my 3 rail club I will be running it to see how it works.  Honest feedback then.

You should get back to the club. I miss running at AGHR. I've been up to McCormick-Stillman Park and the people are nice. Will probably join after the first of the year.

I had the Texas Special 21" cars from the 2015 catalog (4-pack, 2-pack, and SS diner).  I sold them here on the forum last week.  I absolutely loved the way they looked.  True, interior detail was lacking but they looked great on the track.  Mine operated flawlessly.  I finally decided that 21" cars are too long for me no matter who makes them.  Love the GGD cars too but not for me.  I have to stick with the MTH 18"s.

Thanks for the many informative and interesting comments - especially you two guys: Hancock52 and @cojen1981. Those interior modifications are terrific!

Please keep these comments and photos coming - much to learn for everyone.

I really like your interiors. Must look great at night going by.

I like Lionel's 21" passenger cars - look great on layout.  Wish they had passengers though.

A bump for this interesting and informative thread as I've just purchased a 6 car set in D&H livery. Have the handsome 3rd Rail AA Alco PA pair to pull them with. Am anxious to see these and handle them in person. Are the shells simple to remove to get at the interiors as this seems almost a necessity to bring the interiors up to today's standards?

Additional comments and photos are most welcome.

Hi C.Sam,  Getting the body off the frame was difficult on the early release.  I think Lionel's intent was to make it easy to remove the body so we could customize the interiors, which looks to have been accomplished by several posters on this thread! Would be interested to know if the more recent runs are easier to remove. 

Guide for removing car bodies from New Lionel Union Pacific 21 Excursion Passenger Cars | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

@Former Member posted:

Hi C.Sam,  Getting the body off the frame was difficult on the early release.  I think Lionel's intent was to make it easy to remove the body so we could customize the interiors, which looks to have been accomplished by several posters on this thread! Would be interested to know if the more recent runs are easier to remove.

Guide for removing car bodies from New Lionel Union Pacific 21 Excursion Passenger Cars | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

The issue with the earlier cars was the double sided tape they used for the window extend down to where the frame meets the shell essentially gluing them together.  I have had to carefully pry a few apart to replace windows back into the shell and to frost the windows to hide the electronics in the sound car.  Bottom line is with how expensive these cars are they should come with a minimum of passengers.

The 21” Lionel car interiors have three major disappointments. Lack of figures, the monotone beige interior and the thick windows that dominate the interior walls. It becomes a major project to bring these cars up to the standards of most other manufacturers or even their own earlier releases.
At least on some of the road names the bodies are close to prototype. UP and NYC are a few.

Pete

Love the look of the 21" passenger cars, but on my 12 x 24 layout, most look too big on my 72" to 99" curves.  I've stuck mostly with 18" cars which I feel looks much better on a smaller layout.