Lionel's CP 21" Streamlined Passenger Cars . . .

Hi Terry

 Glad you purchased all the cars at once because you it’s tough find them afterwards

  The Set should look awesome after all the Kadees are installed

  I’m looking forward photos and maybe a short vid

Al

Vista Dome Scott

Ouch! 
 I hope to see 3rd Rail/GGD re-issue the Canadian passenger set to quell the remaining demand for a set of these streamlined cars ......I wish

  Unfortunately, Williams is asking $600 for for their set of cars, which are elongated PW design and Weaver issued some similar aluminum cars similar to Williams in the past

 Why would Lionel not consider a re-issue of the K-line CP Canadian cars(18” or 21”). Do they not have the dies? These were the closest to the BUDD design that were eventually superseded by the accurate 3rd Rail/GGD “Canadian” set with correct FP7s and Budd cars

Al

I've now opened all the boxes. Only the dome car came without spacers and had untapped holes for Kadees. 

I've not noticed cosmetic faults of any kind.

I put the obs. car on the layout last night to have a look at the lighting and was favourably impressed. Subdued and yellowish. The capacitor buffer works well and no flickering was noticed.

I am not positive how short a Kadee shank I can get away with yet, My min. curve is 080. Truth is, I am more into display than running these days anyhow but I recall I had to use long shanks on my 21" GGD HW cars to accommodate 080. 

I think the cars look great. But agree with others. Should have had some figures installed. The dome on the observation does appear to be incorrect - should be a Budd design. But what about the interior of the Dome? Why are the seats facing backwards? Perhaps an easy fix, but should never have been shipped this way. 

RAY

I would use a shorter shank Kadee than those you put on the cars, as well as move it further inside the shell- that is way too much space between those cars. Using a 700 series should work just fine. Or at the very least mounting the coupler farther inside the car would look much better. 

Throw the Lionel mounts away and back set the couplers like Jeff said. Check the Lionel mounts on a kadee gauge too. I find they make the couplers ride low.

746s on my own printed pads. Still clears O72.

I avoided this CP set due to the flat glass domes.  Why would the seats in the dome face the rear?  Lionel sure messed this set up IMO.

rdj92807 posted:

I avoided this CP set due to the flat glass domes. 

Guess Lionel made a "generic" dome configuration, and assumed it would apply to any & all railroads.

Why would the seats in the dome face the rear?

Certainly does seem odd. Maybe the factory simply installed that dome seat section backwards?

  Lionel sure messed this set up IMO.

The Dome Floor looks like the Floor in the Santa Fe Vista Dome. It looks like they turned it around to allow the steps up to the Dome to come from the middle of the Observation.  The seats should be on posts that could be carefully tapped out of the Dome Floor and turned around. Now they would face forward.

The 4-pack was described by Terry Danks as having three coaches and an observation.  The catalog says it has a long Baggage Car and shows the baggage car with fixed, non-opening doors.  It also shows a 10-6 Sleeper, and one Coach and the observation. 

The catalog/website calls the dining car a Dome Car with the Santa Fe Full Dome car number, but pictures a standard 36-seat dining car.  Sometimes Lionel's website is incorrect.

Can anyone post pictures of the seven cars?  It would really help. Thanks.

John Rowlen

I have the UP Excursion set (six cars) from last year, plus the diner, theater car, and a two-car expansion set. These are the ones with the "tube" style diaphragms. I've been thinking of mounting Kadees on them, but I'm curious about the curves they'll require. We have a Gargraves 36" radius (O-72) hidden curve in the club layout, but everything else (including a bypass) are 48" radius (O-96).

Any recommendations as to whether I should use Kadee standard-shank or long-shank couplers?

As John requested . . .

Set of Four:

Passenger Sounds Diner:

Set of two:

Thanks for taking the time and care to shoot, edit, and post the photos, Terry.

Thank you for the pics Terry!  
 Should look good once you have the coupler conversions completed.

 As for the Budd Dome, Lionel has the moulds for these from the Kline years plus Atlas has the correct assembly, if they sell extras for parts inventory

Al

AGHRMatt posted:

I have the UP Excursion set (six cars) from last year, plus the diner, theater car, and a two-car expansion set. These are the ones with the "tube" style diaphragms. I've been thinking of mounting Kadees on them, but I'm curious about the curves they'll require. We have a Gargraves 36" radius (O-72) hidden curve in the club layout, but everything else (including a bypass) are 48" radius (O-96).

Any recommendations as to whether I should use Kadee standard-shank or long-shank couplers?

Do the "tubes" extend out any farther than the striker plate diaphragms Matt?

I think the cars look great. But agree with others. Should have had some figures installed. The dome on the observation does appear to be incorrect - should be a Budd design. But what about the interior of the Dome? Why are the seats facing backwards? Perhaps an easy fix, but should never have been shipped this way. 

I discovered the "backward" dome seating when finishing the interior for my Santa Fe dome car.  Turns out it is a pretty easy fix.  Unscrew the LED strips and then rotate the dome casting.  You will need to cut out notches in the other end of the dome casting for the wires for the LED strips (the other end was open).  Then just screw back on the dome casting and the LED strips and you are done.

My greater problem was that the seats in the dome sat so high that my "We Honest" people kept hitting the glass, no matter how I tried trimming their bottoms.  So, I cut of the seat bases and glued them directly to the floor.  

Terry Danks posted:

As John requested . . .

Set of Four:

Passenger Sounds Diner:

 

Set of two:

Hope I come along a set breakup. I have the Golden Gate CP set but that did not include a baggage car. I'm using a K-Line CP baggage car in the consist right now but it's a 60 footer (15 inches) and is passable but would prefer a baggage car with more length. Was using a Weaver silver CP express boxcar (one of the last cars Weaver produced) but the K-Line baggage car got the nod over that. I did add the Lionel Station Sounds Diner to the set and I'm very pleased with that addition. The difference between the Lionel plastic and the GGD aluminum is negligible and I don't think I would see any difference had I not known there was a difference to begin with.  

I am not so knowledgeable about these cars as many here although I have, in my childhood, stood beside at least some of them at Montreal West Station ca. 1954. It was when I saw my first diesel as CPR E8A #1800 pulled these shiny and almost new I guess, streamliners into the station. As a ten year old trainwatcher, I was agog! 

I did twig to the fact that, "Hey! isn't the glass in the domes supposed to be curved?" And I had an unsettled feeling that the seats were facing the wrong way in the domes.

Well, nothing to be done about the glass but I am happy to report the seats are an easy matter.

But, no, you can't just reverse the direction of the entire interior dome assembly. When you do, as I at first tried, you run into wiring problems even if you swap the LED boards that ride on the bottom of the dome "floor." I tried that but the board is constructed in a way that it would be impossible to attach the wires without dremeling away some plastic. Even if you did, I am not positive the dome floor would not then interfere with the "staircase" that is molded into the main coach floor.

While I pondered getting the dremel tool and doing irreversible surgery, I noticed that the seats seems not to be molded into the dome floor at all. "Hmmm . . . will they just pull off?" Yes they will! I was making this a whole lot harder than it needed to be. 

So, getting the passengers facing the "right way" is not difficult to fix at all. Before I complete this though, I need some CA glue to reattach the seats. And somebody needs to whisper to the folks on the assembly line over in China that they're putting the seats in backwards!   Seems this is not a "one of" as my obs. car also has the seats facing to the rear. I also have to confirm that the dome has sufficient headroom to accommodate passengers before I glue any in.

Still working on determining how short a shank Kadee I can use and still negotiate the 080 curve on my layout. 

Incidentally, the diaphragm assemblies are very delicate. Very easy to pull the flexy material from the frame and not so easy to get it back in.  

PS: I see Peter has already determined that the board will fit if you reverse the LED strips and remove some plastic, as I was initially contemplating but, it seems a whole lot easier to remove the seats and reverse them. 

Terry. great info thanks.  

The angled dome brothers me, not sure why Lionel does some things so exacting and other times an important style feature is overlooked.

Terry Danks,  Thank you for posting the CP 21" Pictures.

The Dome Floor has square holes for the seat posts. The posts should be able to be tapped out of the hole and then turned.

I grind 1/4 inch off the top of the lower support walls under the Dome Floor on my Santa Fe 21" Vista Dome and unscrew the Dome Floor to allow it to rest on the lowered walls.  It creates more clearance for my Preiser 65602 Seated People I painted.

Thank you again.

John Rowlen

Regarding Budd domes, my on again/off again search for O scale Budd domes has been fruitless these past several years.  I had hoped Atlas would sell them, but they don't.  I emailed Scott at GGD about the domes for the NP NCL project, and no help there either as the dome is included with the fabrication of the car bodies by Scott's supplier.

OK Engines offers a kit for Budd and Pullman domes.  Ted Brebeck, okengines@aol.com, promptly replied to my inquiry last week about their dome kits by sending me the directions for assembling a dome.  The  instructions convinced me that the kit was beyond my limited skill set.  Shoot him an email if you want to explore this alternative.

If anyone knows of a source for Budd O scale domes, please post the source or email me at the address in my OGR profile.

Why does the Lionel dome look like brass?

I have been using Kemtron domes - they come on the used market fairly often.  They are correct for UP, but may not be correct for Budd cars.  I can't tell the difference.  Lemme see if I can get a photo . . .

The Union Pacific domes are similar looking to Budd but higher profile and maybe longer.   

Thanks.  Didn't know that.  K-Line domes looked too small to me; that's why I do not have any.  Here is a photo - Mac Shops dome, K-Line coach.

Before I drift outta here, those Lionel truck side frames look about as good as one can get in O Scale.  Die cast?  Fragile?

I take it those beautiful car bodies are plastic (ugh)?

bob2 posted:

Before I drift outta here, those Lionel truck side frames look about as good as one can get in O Scale.  Die cast?  Fragile?

I take it those beautiful car bodies are plastic (ugh)?

The trucks used on Lionel's 18" aluminum cars are the best. Better than even GGD's. The new trucks on these 21" plastic cars don't hold a candle to the older trucks. 

Pete

BobbyD posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

I have the UP Excursion set (six cars) from last year, plus the diner, theater car, and a two-car expansion set. These are the ones with the "tube" style diaphragms. I've been thinking of mounting Kadees on them, but I'm curious about the curves they'll require. We have a Gargraves 36" radius (O-72) hidden curve in the club layout, but everything else (including a bypass) are 48" radius (O-96).

Any recommendations as to whether I should use Kadee standard-shank or long-shank couplers?

Do the "tubes" extend out any farther than the striker plate diaphragms Matt?

No. They're about half the thickness.

bob2 posted:

Thanks.  Didn't know that.  K-Line domes looked too small to me; that's why I do not have any.  Here is a photo - Mac Shops dome, K-Line coach.

Bob2, great looking dome car!  I agree that the K-line dome is too small.   I had bought a couple of K-line domes for my 1970s auto-train project but went with the Lionel UP domes instead, really a nice job by Lionel on the UP and BN 21" dome cars.

AGHRMatt posted:

BobbyD posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

I have the UP Excursion set (six cars) from last year, plus the diner, theater car, and a two-car expansion set. These are the ones with the "tube" style diaphragms. I've been thinking of mounting Kadees on them, but I'm curious about the curves they'll require. We have a Gargraves 36" radius (O-72) hidden curve in the club layout, but everything else (including a bypass) are 48" radius (O-96).

Any recommendations as to whether I should use Kadee standard-shank or long-shank couplers?

Do the "tubes" extend out any farther than the striker plate diaphragms Matt?

No. They're about half the thickness.

I made new ones closer to prototype. Then moved the couplers inward so the diaphrams touch. The kinematic feature allows running on even 042 (maybe tighter).  

Prototype on left with I beam support behind the tube.

Original and replacement diaphrams.

Result after moving couplers inward about 1/4".

If you could mount the kadees on a bar so the kinematic feature was retained you would have the best of both worlds. For myself close coupling trumps scale coupler appearance. At some point the thumb tacks may be removed as they are redundant. How many use passenger cars in switching exercises?

Pete

As for the length of Budd domes, perhaps these Budd drawings for NP North Coast Limited domes will help:

And this website has a ton of photos of dome cars organized by railroad starting with UP:

http://www.vistadome.com/vistadome/

Scott, you can judge for yourself how the LIONEL UP domes compare to the prototype since the first 15 photos are UP domes!

Here's the "quality" I received from Lionel on this set.  Tried calling Lionel several times and each time their "customer experience team" is unavailable.   The message says to stay on the line to leave a message but repeats about 6 times and hangs up on you right after the tone.  Why on earth should I ever give these people another penny?

For a premium product, that's appalling, Scott.

PS:  Aren't digital cameras terrific?

Norton posted:I made new ones closer to prototype. Then moved the couplers inward so the diaphrams touch. The kinematic feature allows running on even 042 (maybe tighter).  

Prototype on left with I beam support behind the tube.

...

Original and replacement diaphrams.

Result after moving couplers inward about 1/4".

If you could mount the kadees on a bar so the kinematic feature was retained you would have the best of both worlds. For myself close coupling trumps scale coupler appearance. At some point the thumb tacks may be removed as they are redundant. How many use passenger cars in switching exercises?

 

Pete

Thanks Pete. I like where you went with those. What material did you use for the new diaphragms?

Matt, its just plastruct styrene. I made a couple of jigs to to cut and glue the pieces together. I can post some pics later this evening.

Pete

Pingman posted:

For a premium product, that's appalling, Scott.

PS:  Aren't digital cameras terrific?

It totally is.  Now, some of these cars are getting repainted anyway, so better that I get a set like this than others.  But it shouldn't be like this.  The loose strips of course can be reapplied but there are glue finger prints on the silver paint that are sort of cleaning up.  The Santa Fe cars had some of this also.  The camera is great for sure.  The blemishes on the silver are hard to get an image of but they are there.

Great job on the diaphragm work !!!

VistadomeScott,  I was about to add this set of Canadian Pacific cars and detail them, but I don't need to send another 21" passenger car back.  My first 2-car set of 1927060 Union Pacific cars had the same name plate problems, and I had to send the cars back to the dealer, who sent them back to Lionel.

Fortunately the other set he had was a lot better with just a slight pull-away on the name plate.

John

John,

 It is very disappointing to pre order these built to order products only to receive problems more often than not.  At least your dealer will take them back.   Most tell you to deal with Lionel.

 I have had impressively perfect trains from Lionel.  The 21" BN, Amtrak, and recent BNSF oil train among others are beautiful flawless trains.  Whatever the common thread is that causes bouts of problems like this vs. perfection other times needs identified by Lionel management and corrected.  I am very appreciative of Lionel making many of these sets, Amtrak,  Penn Central, etc.  It is a shame that sometimes they have great ideas, but hit or miss quality.  I hate having to post these negative comments but it is meant constructively and I am hopeful they can listen, and correct.

Hello Terry

  I finally found a set of these for sale at a decent price.

  I guess misery loves company.

 I will be muddling my way as well, converting them to Kadees, eventually replacing the domes(once I find a source)and repainting the Tuscan striping / re-lettering.

  I just ordered them, so a couple of weeks to wait

Al

Here's one car from my set that has been redone: