Lionel's engine #152 NYC prewar motor brushes

Have you looked at the Olsen's Toy Trains site?

http://www.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=753

Yes I did, thanks for the link. If the info. I need is there, couldn't find it.  Been searching for about a week, I could tap out the existing holes in the hump back frame to accept the older 150 style brushes but that defeats the purpose.

At first thought mismatch of parts (although still possible) but doubt it. After reading the article https://www.lionelcollectors.o.../vol28-no4-feb99.pdf  I wonder if this engine is a misfit.

Regards,

John

All I can tell you is the following:

Greenberg Calls it a Type 5 motor.  Collectors call it a humpback motor.  It was used prior to 1930.

The brush plate assembly is part Number SLS-27. The springs are #1-48.  The brushes are #74A-1.

This motor was used on any number of 150 and early 250 series locos, it had a fairly long manufacturing run, in several configurations.

Thanks much! Will check it out!

On the sample 152 I have, which is gray also, It has the early brushplate, which is different from the brushplate on yours. What is exactly the problem with yours? Brushplate doesn't fit?

Chuck hi,

The main problem I'm experiencing is finding the correct part numbers for what I have. Namely the brushes. Rob provided part numbers which will check out and try. The brush plate seats fine but original brushes were shot, almost looked like someone tried off the wall approach - irregular/miss-shaped brushes. I think this engine will run and want to keep as original as possible - just needs some TLC. Thanks!

John

The brushes are 1-92, and have slots for the brushplate shown.

These are available, or you can open up the fingers and fit a shaved down whistle unit brush in there

The brush plate you show in initial post is the same one used on the 248 loco motor.  The brushes are in fact 1-92 brushes which are available.  I recently bought 3 sets, and want to replace the fiber gears with brass gears, before I reassemble my 248.

We have them listed on our site. www.henningstrains.com .  Item # 1-92 @ $3.00 contains 1 pr. of brushes & 1 pr. of springs.  Harry  

Thanks to everyone for your help!   John

Well folks, the new brushes and springs are in. Thanks to Henning's for the parts. Now I've got a dead motor. It actually ran one loop and died.  Checked voltage at brushes and is there and correct which unless mistaken rules out any wiring issues from pickups, motor winding, but am wondering if the armature is shot??

I have a running #150 that I've cross referencing for trouble shooting and am stumped by the #152 motor. It actually is in physical shape than the 150 although I did have to shim the brush plate a tad on the 152 as the brush holder was hitting the frame.

Does anyone have ideas or how to trouble shoot the armature before replacing???

John

Ran across this older thread doing a search.

The motor as stated type 5 was made in 1926-1927 also used in the early orange 248 that had brass plates spoke wheels unlike other 248s with solid disk painted metal plates (not brass) along with a few others as mentioned in thread.

Did you ever figure out if armature was good?

Learned many years ago crude way from someone how to easily test armature if one does not have a meter.

Transformer set low volts touch 1 lead to armature segment then one next to it it should jump(spark) do each segment like this, after that touch armature stem and one segment at a time you should not see any spark, jump or noise.

If it passes the above armature should be ok. If not something is wrong like broken winding and or bad solder joint at 1 of the segments.

Is the wiring original?
Did you replace the wiring with new?
Did you replace the wire directly to the pickup or did you just added a jumper?
If a jumper was added there may be a short or break on the bottom by the pickup and that the wires do not rub on the axle of the wheels.
I would use a ohm meter to buzz out all of the wire connections that you may of added. look for visual shorts or breaks, check out your brush plate wires and make sure they are not shorted to chassis. If it ran and did not smoke there may wiring problem. (I would suspect the wire connection to the pick-up plate or the original one to the brush is shorted to frame).

I would also get a set of alligator clips and turn the loco upside down. Connect one side of the alligator clips wires to your transformer and the others to chassis ground and the pick-up. open the transformer throttle and see if it works, spin the wheels and see if there is any life.
Hope this helps as all the info above are great ideas

On some if these brush plates the fiber insert swell/growns and will allow the brush tube to contact the motor side and short it out. Simple fix is to place a washer under the brush plate leg to increase the distance. I have seen this be an issue in many of these motors. I written a descriptive text on all of the prewar motor types as well as wind-up over the years for my own research. and have examples of all motor types, interesting progression over the years

Thanks for all the great input! Wow, it seems like a long time ago when I posted that. Learned a lot with a lot to learn. That particular motor/engine was my very first attempt. Since then have done/worked on a few 152, couple of 150, 153, 154, 248, 253. But that very first one was the only one where I had trouble with the armature/commutator. It actually blew up and threw pieces across the garage. So, I sent it off for a rebuild. Did my father's 150 right after that and knew I had a bad armature going in...sent it off for rebuild, the commutator face was falling apart.

To answer Ron, I ended up doing all new wires/roller p.u./ brushes/2 new wheels -pretty much everything but the field winding. To answer JAGRICK, agree and had to shim the brush holder. I also keep a rough log book on all items worked on but at times forget although if I get stumped will be sure to ask! Unless of course you have a copy for sale?

One of these days I'll break down and buy a good digital meter!! Am nearing the point of either moving on to some other aspect of tinplate or becoming more tooled up to do humpbacks more professionally.

Anyway, photos attached of that first 152- didn't turn out too bad...

John

John H. Shetler posted:

Thanks for all the great input! Wow, it seems like a long time ago when I posted that. Learned a lot with a lot to learn. That particular motor/engine was my very first attempt. Since then have done/worked on a few 152, couple of 150, 153, 154, 248, 253. But that very first one was the only one where I had trouble with the armature/commutator. It actually blew up and threw pieces across the garage. So, I sent it off for a rebuild. Did my father's 150 right after that and knew I had a bad armature going in...sent it off for rebuild, the commutator face was falling apart.

To answer Ron, I ended up doing all new wires/roller p.u./ brushes/2 new wheels -pretty much everything but the field winding. To answer JAGRICK, agree and had to shim the brush holder. I also keep a rough log book on all items worked on but at times forget although if I get stumped will be sure to ask! Unless of course you have a copy for sale?

One of these days I'll break down and buy a good digital meter!! Am nearing the point of either moving on to some other aspect of tinplate or becoming more tooled up to do humpbacks more professionally.

Anyway, photos attached of that first 152- didn't turn out too bad...

John

Picture look great, love working on the 150 series, 248's and 253's.
Must of been a sight when the armature let go, never had that happen to me.
Do you rubber stamps for the lettering or decals or adhesive stickers?

Hi Ron, when that armature let go it sounded like a .22 short going off ! I just sat there and said...oh sh..t! Thankfully didn't have the cab on. Never did find all the pieces so be forewarned!! The wife came in and asked "what was that ya shooting at ground hogs again"? NO hon, the train just blew up. LOL.

Anyway, on that loco I used water slide decals. Since then quit using and went with rubber stamps from JLM Trains..

John 

John H. Shetler posted:

Hi Ron, when that armature let go it sounded like a .22 short going off ! I just sat there and said...oh sh..t! Thankfully didn't have the cab on. Never did find all the pieces so be forewarned!! The wife came in and asked "what was that ya shooting at ground hogs again"? NO hon, the train just blew up. LOL.

Anyway, on that loco I used water slide decals. Since then quit using and went with rubber stamps from JLM Trains..

John 

Never did water slide or stick on's just did the rubber stamps from JLM Trains. It takes a bit to get used to but the mineral sprites can erase any mistakes as long at the ink is not dried. The investment is not bad as I keep on picking up the same models

A word of advice to all you folks that actually run your pre war locos.

              I highly recommend that you clean the commutator end of the armature and run a very small bead of 5 minute epoxy between the commutator edge and where the armature wire is attached to each section of the commutator. This will lock the inner side of the segments in place.  Most all of the time you will eventually lose an armature when heat is built up under normal operations, and the commutator segments become loose, snag the end of a worn brush and blow apart.  Rewinds / rebuilds are not cheap!! 

Note,   It is my experience this is most likely to happen a lot quicker  on the Lionel standard gauge  motors.  Harry 

Thank you Harry! Great advice! Will definitely look into.

John

Hi guys, I have a question for John or Harry. I am restoring my Dad's 150 and I was trying to get the brushes out of the holders- the holders have those crimped tabs- and realized these are actual brushes- that is individual strands of wire compressed into a cylinder. Now Harry's I-92 brushes are carbon, right? Is it fine to use those?

How do you guys get rid of deep scratches/grooves on commutators? Lots of sanding? I haven't restored a Lionel motor in a while- what's the best way to clean it? Okay to soak the whole thing in mineral spirits?

Finally, Harry, if you see this, I don't see the bell for the 150 on your parts list. Do you carry that?

Thanks, Will

I am re-running the bell. Should be back in stock about 2 weeks. The carbon brushes wear faster, but are gentler on the commutator surface.   Harry 

Will, the #92 brushes won't work from your description of the brush holder. Makes sense as the true 150 motors didn't have the rectangular brush holder but rather the dogleg or triangular (very early) holder. Harry used to sell a rebuild kit (dogleg style)that included all you need including new brushes, holders, screws, nuts, etc, The newer brushes are tinned and have seen where some folks are able to solder them in but I never had luck doing that- just crimp the ears of the spring abit to hold the brush.

As far as cleaning the motor, unless you are completely dissembling it (breaking in half and installing new stakes) I wouldn't soak the entire thing since the windings probably wouldn't hold up well.  Otherwise mineral spirits with a small cloth/Q-tips for the metal and very soft bristle brush to gently wipe the loose dirt off the windings. Some folks use electrical contact cleaner but not sure what brand. Perhaps they can weigh in with some more expertise...

The commutator face - if it's scored very deep be careful when sanding or you'll get out of round/lopsided. Sometimes she'll run ok with scoring but is harder on everything, needs more maintenance due to excessive sparking, and may heat up the armature.

Maybe other folks have some better ideas? Hope it helps

Thanks guys. The brush holder is round. I will take your advice and nor soak it John. I may tackle it tonight. I won't run this a lot, but would like to get it running.

Im about to try to fix m 1st 150 - it has the dog leg brush holder. so are the brushes just crimped in? its a dirt motor right now, so would like to understand how its assembled before i start. does anyone make armatures for these motors - or does anyone have the part number?

https://ogrforum.com/...-pre-war-254-brushes.

Speeddave, this was discussed very recently under the link above.

Thanks. The link doesnt work unfortunately.

found it - brushes #73.