Lionel's New Berkshires Hitless 0 for 3

Add Mexico where the airbags were made.

http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSKCN0J41BX20141120

RickO - Please allow me to retort.

 

You are indeed correct when stating that simply moving the manufacturing of an item to the States provides no guarantee that QC will be improved.  It is absolutely possible that QC could be just as bad here in the States.

 

But it's my opinion, that by and large, QC stands a much better chance of improving here in the US....for a number of reasons.  Nor am I advocating a pro-Union rah-rah position etc.

 

The reality of the situation is that China is frequently chosen because it's cheap.  Plain and simple.  But, as the saying goes, you always get what you pay for.

 

And yes - your link to the GM story reports a truly shocking mentality.

 

 

 

It's been a while since Mike R changed jobs.  Pretty sure his replacement in CS is named Phil Hull.  While they are nearly the same size, aside from that they don't look much alike!

 

From casual conversations at the Legacy Breakfast, it sounds like Mike has been to China, but I wouldn't bet he or anyone else from Lionel stateside is going to take up residence there anytime soon (not that I could blame them, but then I'm not in the business of selling model trains made on the other side of the world).

 

 

I've returned some items over the years for issues, but I suspect they end up in the hands of more forgiving customers than myself rather than making it all the way back to the manufacturer.  I would wonder if any returns ever make it back to the manufacturer (or even the distributor).

 

That would be nice, but the "got to have it" syndrome is too ingrained in the hobby as a whole.  If not, we would not be in this situation to this extent to begin with.

 

-Dave

 

I guess the airbags were already mentioned.  There are quite a number of Fords out there that suffer a very expensive automatic transmission failure every 25,000 miles or so.  And now we hear that a certain aircraft magneto has started failing in the first several hundred hours of operation.  These magnetoes are almost identical to the 1930s Case tractor magnetoes, and used to give thousands of hours between overhauls.

 

I would machine new bushings, install them, and go on having fun.  This little error is simply lost in the noise.  And do not believe we could make these things here for a grand - it cannot happen unless you would take a job for six bucks an hour.

2 pages of replies to this post so far. Gee, I can hardly wait for the Big Boy in a month or so.

I seem to recall this problem with the last batch of Lionel scale Berkshires, 2010 or so. If this type of reoccurrence happened in most companies there would be some demotions and jobs lost.

I agree with Berkshire P.

I would wager that as a group we have a higher tolerance for out of the box failures with respect to trains than we would for other major purchases we may make.

I believe that if we were more demanding, especially at the prices we pay, the QC would improve.

 

Unfortunately, I have had too many out of the box train failures causing me to pull way back on new purchases.

 

I'm not going to get wrapped up in all the hype because Lionel has gone BTO.

 

There will always be plenty of trains to buy......new or secondary......

 

Just be patient....

 

Soo Line 

 

That's great for those with the skills and facilities to do so.  I do not have the ability to "machine" anything.  I'm fully capable of moderate dis-assembly and small wiring tweaks if needed, but machining anything (from what material, while we are at it?  is it something we should all have on hand in our fully stocked machine shop?) is not going to happen in my case at least.

 

To me that's an equivalent statement of telling me to simply re-program my fuel injector if the car won't start.

 

I'm sure you are right about the costs to make here, however.  The other factor is all the business models demand improvement on previous year's performance.  Peculiar that they don't worry about quality for the consumer, just overall financial.  There is no "reset" to make up for quality slippages over the years.  Still need to show better numbers than last year.

 

Since people are willing to accept things though and the money keeps coming in, from a business perspective, it's all good!

 

-Dave

Wow, I'm sorry to hear of so many people having trouble.  One would hope that with a locomotive that expensive someone would be double checking everything before it is boxed up.  

There's nothing like quality, and that's nothing like it! 

Ask GM about ignition switches that the Engineer Department knew about...

 

Rusty

The bushing in the trailing truck on my engine is broken in half.  Has any one replaced this bushing without taking the truck off of the engine? The removal of a couple of screws and the C retaining ring is fairly straight forward.  Whereas the the retaining ring most likely is the part with the most potential to go flying off somewhere, probably a new one should be included in any parts order. 

 

  Will Lionel still back the warranty with this type of customer repair?  Will they create a service bulletin to follow?  Questions that I will be asking Lionel's service department.

.

RickO

 

  I am in full agreement with you about taking a chance of exposing these engines to a round trip to Lionel, given the shipping industry's rough handling practices.  Before I could get out the front door, the delivery person tossed the box up onto the porch.  Somewhere along the way, the corner of the flimsy shipping box sustained some minor damage which in turn put a small crimp in the orange box.  The styrofoam container was unscathed. 

 

 

  It is good to see Steve Nelson's post that he will be checking his inventory as , I believe, a direct positive result of this thread.  It will save him and his customers some disapointment.

 

Chris Cook 

 

  

  

For parts external, at least, I have had excellent results with "Contact Lionel" emails. I have outlined the failures, explained how I arrived at a solution that I could effect, and listed the part(s) I needed. Pictures help. Lionel has always been agreeable to sending me some small bits in a few days. Certainly it saves additional costs on their end, saves me time, adds to the fun of the puzzle of model trains, and hopefully prevents, somewhat, their profit margin being diminished such that they have to raise prices. 

quote:

Yup collect your paycheck and leave .. No difference really . I must be different I installed a kitchen yesterday and took a cabinet down 3 times to make sure it was right ..

 

There are contractors around here with high standards. They certainly aren't hurting for work. The wait for their services can be fairly long.

 

quote:

I would machine new bushings, install them, and go on having fun.

 

How many people participating on this board have the facilities and knowledge to machine new bushings? I think one of my buddies could.

Did you make fun of the Red Sox at Charlies booth at York?

 

In all seriousness, Whether manufactured in China or in the USA, if there is no Quality Control inspection process in place, like there was at the old Lionel Factory in New Jersey, it will continue to happen. I guess it has to become a big enough headache, or an expensive problem, for Lionel to realize this.

 

Everybody check your engines as soon as you get them and don't take less than perfect! 

Lionel did a recall for bad traction tires so I would think this would fall in the same bucket. 

Wow !!  You guys filled my "in" box. If I paid a grand for a toy engine an parts were off it in the box I would be very upset no matter where it was made.  I haven't bought one and have no intention to buy one but interesting. A lot of people should understand the manufacturing and market conditions today. Let's face it, today these tings are made somewhere in China under God knows what conditions.Lionel, MTH an others are marketing organizations not manufacturers. I don't know but would be surprised if they even directly employed an designers or engineers. Not that simple to switch your production to someone else so it will depend on how Lionel responds. Now I am going to go run my 1952 Berkshire.

Not to pile on, but it seems to me a QC issue across the board, please examine the following purchases and issues I found, ALL NEW RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX:

 

Train 1 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU had binded gears right out of the box

 

Train 2 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU was the dealer replacement for Train 1 above, and only had one truck powered.

 

Train 3 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU was the dealer replacement for Train 2 above, it runs...but has some funky quirks

 

Train 4 - Sepetember 2014

Lionel TMCC SP SD40-2's, both took some work by the dealer for the lead unit and myself for the trailing unit to work without hitch.

 

Train 5 - November 2014

Lionel Legacy WP F3, no grease on gears, totally dry, A-Unit engine, motor or gears...not sure is a little noisy,  door found fallen off of B-Unit in box, reverse performance on lead A-unit and trailing A-unit (unpowered) is poor, i.e. derailment on a straight track.

Lead A-unit is wobbly. Oversized traction tires affecting performance as they rub against the truckframe/brake shoes...thanks lionel...

 

Train 6 - November 2014 

Lionel PWC F3 TX SP A Unit, took this out of the box only for the 2nd time, and it will not respond to commands.

First time right out of the box, the power units lead truck had the engine mount screw fall out and I had to loc-tite it back in.

 

 

Thats a great reason to start buying from you.

Except that workers in the USA do not make Dog food containing a toxic protein substitute, to help line China's pockets and kill our cats and dogs.

Nor do USA workers make toxic Happy Meal toys containing lead to give to our children.

Nor make baby food that poisons babies.

USA workers do not use paint containing lead on pet toys to poison our pets or drywall that rots our electrical wiring in our homes.

USA workers do not make vitamins containing industrial waste.

The list goes on and on and on....in China's disregard for human life and the products they make.

I really don't know if it would hold. Only one them had the additional small piece in the box. The bearing for the black polar in the trailing truck is almost missing half of the bottom portion to me.

 

When I call about them and if they decide just to send me the parts I'm going to ask for them to send 6 of them to replace all 6. To me this must be a defective part and if they broke off on one side I do not think it would be long before the other side will brake off.

 

But I'm not in a big rush to where I need them tomorrow. With no operating layout at this time they will just sit in their boxes. I have the 2nd scale Polar Express engine here if I need one to use.

No matter what particular axe(s) you feel like grinding regarding the country of manufacture, a locomotive at this price point should not have any defects whatsoever.  No excuses.

 

Pete

 

 

My LHS, Imperial Trains, always opens, tests, and takes care of any issues before I leave the shop. 

The purchaser of a new, out of the box Anything should not have to repair it but dealing with China anything is possible. It is also possible that the same Chinese company is making engines for several of the American companies-look at this air bag fiasco.  And the mfr. knew about it some years ago.  For all you know, these toys could be assembled in some Chinese woman's house and she gets paid by the piece. I just hope the company putting these units together is a Chinese defense contractor making all their new weapons.

 

SandJam wrote: "Strange the engine has plastic but the tender has brass bushings.  Who is the final say on design?  Lionel or the manufacturer? "

 

The tender has weight, but these are light weight pilot wheels that really don't support the engine. Maybe that's why.

Doesnt matter...as long as China is making them, they will ignore and so whatever they want.

The makers of American dog food a few years back and McDonalds a few years back designed their products to be safe....the Chinese cut corners to pad their profits and killed our dogs and cats and endangered or children.

The sooner we stop having a country that right now can hack and take down our entire electric grid is never a good thing.

       
I think that's great.  What would be even better is if Lionel (and yes, MTH, Atlas...also) did this before the higher-end product is shipped to the distributors/dealers.  They may not be able to afford to build them in the U.S., but you can't tell me that they can't afford to inspect them here.  If the QC can't be done effectively overseas, it should be done once the product arrives here in the States.  Bottom line: Lionel should have discovered this issue on a thousand-dollar locomotive, whether caused by faulty manufacturing or faulty packaging, before any dealers or customers discovered it.  Period.

 

       
Not sure I even know what this statement means, Marty.  Are you trying to say Lionel would have still shipped them to the distributors/dealers if they saw broken bearing pieces laying in the boxes??  Guess I'm naive as I don't want to believe they would do something like that.  It makes this story even worse!!  And here I thought you were a brand "L" guy through and through.

I sure want a inspection in the states. Lionel should want it even more then us. When $1000.00 is spent for a quality engine like the Berkshire the last thing Lionel should want is there customer unwrapping the engine and the wheel falls out along with broken bushings. Then their customer has to set a new $1000.00 engine in the siding while waiting for replacement bushings to arrive. Then we have the worry that we can successfully replace the bushings on our new engine. Certainly the need for Lionel to have the assembly plant practice P.A.T.D. is paramount. We have P.A.T.D. signs throughout my place of business.

My confidence of the Big Boy working correctly is very low.

P.A.T.D. (pay attention to detail)

Bob

 

So a thousand bucks.  It comes from China all packaged up, in styrofoam, with tissue paper carefully taped on.

 

Are you willing to pay another hundred bucks for a US worker, who gets an average salary and benefits, to unpack, test, examine, and then repack?  Come to think of it, it might take more than an hour, so you are looking at $200 extra?

 

I am guessing no, considering how easily replaced a simple bushing is.

 

If I need a bushing or fairlead, I machine them out of Teflon.  I have no idea what this particular bushing looks like, but I bet it could be replaced with a stack of washers.

 

A thousand bucks is no longer a great deal of money. In 2-rail scale, freight cars are approaching half that, without couplers!

Speak for yourself, I would gladly pay extra money, even a $100 if I received a product that was in the shape intended when I took it out of the box.  The pain of getting repairs done and the time involved is much more than $100. 

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

I agree Steve!

It cost the poor dealer money that sold me 3 MTH LIRR MU's and had to be exchanged in shipping costs.

I would rather employ some poor guy from the inner city who is an american citizen who will always care more than a person from another country....or in the case of China a heartless country.

 

It is to me!!!  Just that now it's all too easy to spend it without even loading up your trunk.    Heck you don't even need two hands to walk out the door with $1K worth of stuff.    Absolutely crazy... but it ain't gonna change anytime soon. 

 

Time to wax philosophical about the "good ole days"... in that 1966 Lionel Catalog which featured a COMPLETE Super-O train set, including a 773 Hudson, 7 freight cars (3 of which were operating), Super-O track with a pair of remote turnouts, and last but not least the venerable ZW.   All for the whopping price of $225... which admittedly was a lotta money back in those days.    But at least you walked outta the store with a few boxes that had some "heft" to them.  Might even have needed to make two trips to the car.  So you didn't feel too bad. 

 

David

It seems the Chinese are always looking to cut corners.   This is one of the "costs" of doing business there.  

Funny thing is, MTH does just that, i.e. unpacks every steam locomotive model, tests it, and repackages it. Wonder how much "stuff" they find doing THAT.