Lionel's new SP Cab Forward...Please Lionel..

Absolutely!!!!   Plus, PLEASE get that "SP Freight whistle" correct. Back when the cab forward first came out, the Lionel sound folks were in the mode of "BIG steam model, then BIG DEEP whistle", and THAT was truly wrong for many of their largest articulated steam locomotive models.

Hi Guys,

 

Hear is a sound file that Soundtraxx has for the SP Cab Forwards:

 

http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/...i/playsound.php?s=s5

 

Steve

Lionels Lionmaster version of the cab forward has sounds identical to the prototype you posted Steve. So they have the "means" get it right.

 

The only drawback to the lionmaster soundset pointed out by "Mr Korling" is that when the chuffs start, the compressor sounds stop.

 

I could not find any videos of the lionmaster cab forward being run in cc to demonstrate the soundset. There are a couple  youtube videos of it being run conventionally, but the compressor sounds get interrupted by the lower starting voltage and direction changes.

Thanks for sharing that video, I really enjoyed that!  Sorry, little off topic

 

- Mike

quote:

 Below is a short video so that one can hear that sound.

Unique and distinctive it surely is, but, that noise got annoying real quick!

I may get yelled at but I think the Daylight version is a winner!

They might as well paint the Big Boy in the 49er scheme, then...

 

Rusty

The video was a wonderful treat and I don't think it is off topic. Educational at the very least.

When you're an SP and Cab Forward fan, it's actually music to the ears.

 

 

 

 

The same discrepancy is true with the 2005 scale version as well.

 

And, as Hot Water alluded to above, the whistle sound used on both the LionMaster and the Scale version were completely wrong.  The whistle used an air valve, not a pullstring, to operate, and as such, the sound was either on or off, with no quilling.  The pitch was wrong too; listen to the whistle on the video link provided earlier.

 

And two more things to plea to Lionel on this new release of scale cab forwards:

 

1) Please, please, please, DON'T offer them in Daylight colors.  It's just plain tacky.  Might as well paint 'em up in Conrail blue while you're at it.

 

2) Please, please, please, no more TowerCom on steam engines.  It's so unrealistic & also tacky.  Just focus on crew chatter, and strive to make those as realistic as possible too.

 

Great video!  Thrilling to see the real engine in action.

 

Art

Stunning, just STUNNING!!!

 

That was the most correct sound package I have ever heard of an SP cab forward. Especially that SP chime "freight whistle". We carried one of those beautiful SP freight whistles on the Fireman's side on SP4449, for a number of years (someone got into the roundhouse and stole the whistle). Although we had it mounted on the superheated steam manifold, which was the same steam supply to the main passenger "deep" whistle, that smaller SP freight whistle sure sounded nice.

 

I hope Lionel Sound Engineers really take note of this thread, and try to come as close as possible to that "Soundtraxx" sound package.

 

Also, please note in that Youtube video, posted above, of the real cab forward, the close-up shot of the exhaust splitter over the exhaust stacks. THAT was/is a VERY DISTINCTIVE feature of all SP cab forwards. 

John,

I can understand your point of view. However, put yourself in the ears of one who has to listen to it for as much as 16 hrs (which was the hours of service back then)at a time? Watching that video, those compressors must have been working over 95% of the time. My question is, did they not have a governor or is air being used somewhere so much that it they can't keep up with the leakage?

 

There have been a few folks here that have asked for the sound of those "Spitter" valves on diesel locos. Trust me, you don't want to have to listen to that noise for any length of time. Even when you are stopped and just trying to relax a bit before moving again, there was that constant spit...spit..spit ruining a lovely day. Would you while at your workplace like to hear an annoying sound constantly?

 

Hot Water uses the word "STUNNING" for the sound byte.

Up to a point I agree with him. Then after that whistle crossing is blown and the train speeds up, things got real tinny. Hopefully, Lionel can do better than that.

 

I would imagine that being located at the opposite end of the source of the noise and within the enclosed cab, I'm sure the compressor sounds just mixed in with all the other noises that steam engines make especially while underway.

 

The frequency of the air compressors venting that you hear on the cab forward is nothing unique compared to other steam locomotives.  The primary difference is all other steam engines' air compressors tend to have their venting pipes routed inside the smokebox, where that sound is muffled significantly.  If you hear regular steam engines at idle, you tend to hear a muffled sort of chuff-chuff sound; that's the air compressors venting inside the smokebox.  On the cab-forward, for whatever reason, has the air compressor exhaust pipes pointing straight up from the compressors behind the smokebox straight to the air instead of into the smokebox. 

 

Why that was done I don't know, but that design began with the AC-6 class all the way up to the AC-12 (except the AC-9 which was a Yellowstone and not a cab forward); all other cab forwards prior to the AC-6 did not.  It may have been done that way so that the crew knew if the compressors were working properly or not; since sound waves compress moving forward in relation to movement it would make sense, kind of like why it was harder to hear the whistle at a grade crossing since the whistle is located towards the back of the locomotive so they used the air horn in front of the cab instead.

Didn't MTH or 3rd Rail make a Cab Forward with cylindrical shaped tender? In my opinion, that makes the model look awesome. The rectangular shaped tender is boring by comparison.

Different class. AC-4 to maybe AC-6 flat faced engines. I believe all of the AC-12s came with rectangular tenders.

 

Pete

The daylight paint schema on the cab forward is stated in the catalog as a "what if" so it's obviously its not prototypical, but if you want it, you can have it.

 

As long as manufacturers state the fantasy paint job, and not try to fool anyone, let people that like it enjoy it.

 

Personally, I like it whether it existed or not...and in someones own railroad, they have the freedom to do what they like.  No one complains about the Polar Express or the Peanuts, or MLB paint jobs.  Its the same thing...

 

Its a "what-if" and that's all.

 

Now if they get the sounds right, both the prototypical painted and fantasy one will be a big hit for sure.

 

 

 

Correct.

In many conversations with the "old head" Engineers on the SP, to a man, when asked about those external exhausting air pumps on the cab forwards, ALL stated that the sound of them was not a problem in the cab. However, more than one crew member commented that while you were trying to sleep in the "crew dorms", and one of those darned AC locomotives was parked nearby, there was no way you were getting any sleep!

The square tenders began starting with the AC-7.

 

As to the boring comment, all I can say is the fact that squared tenders on the later classes were higher capacity for oil & water, thus larger than the earlier "semi-vanderbilt" tenders, and therefore gives the locomotives an even more larger, massive appearance.  I would hardly consider that boring. 

If they get the sounds right, I will buy one at least.  If not, I will get none.

 

I do miss the sounds on my HO AC-12.

 

As cool as the Big Boys are, nothing to me is sexier than the Cab Forwards of the SP.

You can already get a Cab-Forward with the correct sounds in O gauge:  MTH with their AC-6, both the early ProtoSound and the later Protosound 2.0/3.0.

 

Granted it's not the AC-12 but they did offer in their most current release rebuild versions that include the"modernized" cab.

 

At one point QSI also had the cab forward sound board available for separate sale, I have an old Williams brass cab forward that has one in it.

How about whistle smoke in all in exchange for NO MORE crew talk???

I'd do one better and take the whistle smoke technology and apply it to the cab forward's air compressor exhaust piping behind the smoke stack that you can see in the video.

So John, let me get this right. Your ordering the Daylight cab forward and the Daylight crane and boom cars. Don

 

quote:

The frequency of the air compressors venting that you hear on the cab forward is nothing unique compared to other steam locomotives.  The primary difference is all other steam engines' air compressors tend to have their venting pipes routed inside the smokebox, where that sound is muffled significantly.  If you hear regular steam engines at idle, you tend to hear a muffled sort of chuff-chuff sound;

Frequency as in ear piercing sound frequency or running all of the time frequency?
If you are speaking of sound, I can understand. However, depending on where you stand around other steam locos, you may hear the muted pfft...pfft...pfft of the compressor operating or you may hear the drumming it creates in the air reservoirs as it pumps up the air.

The question still remains as to why the compressors in the video rarely if ever cycled on & off as they do on other locos.

 

Here's hoping you Cab Forward guys get the sounds you are asking for and I hope they are better than that Tsunami thing.

I think the Daylight version is way cool.

Thanks

Pat

WWW.PATSTRAINS.COM

Funniest thing I have read in a long time.

Frequency as in running all the time.  In this case, "sequencing" all the time.  Other locomotives air compressor exhausts pop off like that too; the difference is that the sounds are more muted in other locomotives due to the exhausts being piped into the smokebox as already discussed.

 

The cab forward's air compressors did cycle on and off, just in rapid succession.  You can see it in the video.  Otherwise you wouldn't hear that constant popping whistle-wheeze sound.

Don,

Believe it or not, the crane car painted in Daylight colors is actually prototypical, at least for SPMOW #7070:

 

 

 

 

 

Now as to the boom car, that's a different matter. 

I know where the crane and boom are hiding. Don

 

Actually, the air compressors (pumps if you prefer) do NOT "shut off" on other real steam locomotives, except of course on the restored N&W 611 when they put a "diesel type" on-off governor on the air compressor steam supply. The reason the the air compressor/compressors NEVER shut off on steam locomotives, was/is to prevent condensation build-up in the steam supply lines to the steam side of the compressor. In the air compressor steam supply shut-off valve, which is controlled by the governor, there is a small orifice. That small orifice allows a very small, but constant steam flow to the air compressors, so that the compressors idle very slowly, but NEVER stop. Thus, there is no water condensation build-up in the steam supply lines to the compressors.   

Ahh yes, I completely forgot that CSRM has that crane car stored away!  That's in the old Sacramento shops, on the other side of Highway 99, or rather what's left of it. 

 

As to getting the cab forward in Daylight colors, I'm going to wait until they offer it in Santa Fe Warbonnet or NYC lightening stripe schemes. 

 

Send those Milwaukee Road engines you have my way Don, and I'll get 'em repainted in Soo Line white & red for you. 

Any particular reason why the cab-forward compressors exhausted directly, as opposed to being exhausted into the smokebox?  Did their location somehow prohibit this?

That is a given my friend!

Earlier I stated that I was not aware of any particular reason.  The way the compressors themselves were mounted certainly was not a reason since the compressors are mounted right up against the smokebox like a lot of other steam locomotives from other roads that were similarly equipped.  I could again only speculate that they did this so that it would make it easier on the crew to hear them working while underway, since they wouldn't be able to hear it as well with the cab in front of it versus behind like traditional steam locomotives, but that's just a guess.  All I know is that this exhaust design wasn't done on cab forwards prior to the AC-6 class, and those pre-AC-6 locomotives had the compressors mounted on the side of the locomotive below the walkways with the exhaust routed into the smokebox in the traditional way.

TANGENT,

 

Riding Amtrak through Sacramento last week I noticed the station tracks/main lines have been move a hundred yards or so north now running near the old Sacramento shops.  The first time was at night and I thought they had torn down the station.  Returning during the day I see it is now a loooonnnnnggg walk from the platforms to the station.  Anyone know what's up with that? 

Without trying to get "too technical" here, air compressors don't just "exhaust into the smoke box". Introducing ANY amount of steam into a smokebox, would reduce the vacuum created in the smokebox, which draws air into the firebox. Steam expands rapidly, and would thus affect the draft to the firebox.

 

That being said, the exhaust from air compressors, was generally piped into, or very near the base of the exhaust/nozzle stand, so as to have that exhaust "go up the stack", and NOT have a negative affect on the vacuum in the smokebox. Those railroads that mounted the air compressors on the smokebox front cover/door, like C&O and GN, still had to have extensive piping mounted to collect those exhausts and route that collected exhaust steam into the base of the smokebox. It is entirely possible that the Southern Pacifice simply did not bother to pipe the air compressor exhaust into the base of the smokebox mainly because it simply wasn't needed. 

 

Remember, all those other railroads that had "flying pumps", i.e. air compressors mounted on the smokebox front doors, would have had all that air compressor exhaust truly "right out in front" of the cab crew members! In even the slightest of cool air, all that visible steam exhaust vapor would have seriously hindered forward visibility for the Engineer and Fireman. The Southern Pacific cab forwards had no such problems with crew visibility, since all those various appliances that exhausted steam, were mounted BEHIND everyone in the cab!

Hot Water,

 

I took it as a given that the air compressor exhaust itself by design would be routed so that it goes up, and not down, the stack.  That would be pretty obvious.

The Daylight colored version is tempting me to buy this model, which is not part of my otherwise disciplined approach to stay with limited roadnames. If it had the cylindrical tender with the "Polar Railroad" on the tender, my pre-order would have been in by now.

 

Regarding the video with sounds, it did start to get annoying, be it the compressors or whatever that intermediate thumping was.