Lionel's Promise

No comment.

RickO posted:

No comment.

Too late. 

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

Jeff78rr posted:

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

Good one Jeff, I cracked up when I read this!

And he will respect you in the morning...

I hope so, I ordered the ******* thing.

All I can say is those UP excursion passenger cars better be right. I think they better insect those with more than 1 set of eyes.

Lol.  Yep.  We'll inspect these.   Screw everything else!

I'm gonna go f***ing ballistic if I get the three passenger trains I have on order and they're all goofed up

Wow. You are a true train guy. I wish you luck!

I have a comment.....  & Question?

Why is this only being sold by the Lionel Store, and not their dealers.  I have an annual model train budget.  

This locomotive is selling for $1200.00, if I purchase this loco, that means $1200.00, less to spend at a Lionel Dealer.

Why is Lionel cutting out my dealers?   What's the scam?

Gary

"Why is Lionel cutting out my dealers?   What's the scam?"

Maybe not a scam.
-Lionel is not aiming for the typical Lionel loco buyer. Folk who buy brass trains seem to have a different mind set. $1200 for a (almost) brass model is, these days, not unusual.
-Brass locos are typically not sold through dealers. 3rd Rail did at one time, but, as I recall, only at full list. Don't know about Weaver, but I had to buy my BP-20 direct from Weaver.
-This loco could be Lionel dipping its toe into the brass market. Limited run so that except for the chassis (least expensive part of the model) cost to produce is likely very close to selling price if Lionel intends to be competitive. No room for dealer discount.

I'm not seeing anything nefarious here.

rex desilets posted:

"Why is Lionel cutting out my dealers?   What's the scam?"

Maybe not a scam.
...

I'm not seeing anything nefarious here.

With all the price increases Lionel has instituted in the last 2-3 years, why on Earth should be we believe that NOW Lionel's execs are trying to be "price competitive" in the brass market by reportedly cutting out dealer mark-up?  Sorry... I don't buy that argument.  This dog just won't hunt. 

While I wouldn't call it nefarious, I don't like the "signal" Lionel is sending to its long-time dealer/distributor network by exploring this market without them.  Sometimes it's not worth doing something "just because you can".  And this is one of those times, IMHO.   Sounds more like Howard hired Walter to do some consulting at Lionel.  

David

Jeff78rr posted:

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

They didn't say that. They only said that every single one of these very limited run engines will be tested. That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done. GE doesn't test every $3000 refrigerator it sells. Samsung doesn't test every $4000 TV it sells. Lennox doesn't test every $7000 HVAC unit it sells. Etc. Etc.

That's not to say that the train manufacturers, Lionel included, don't need to do more testing at their factories. It seems clear that they do.

I am gonna order one tommorow . I wish they would of did  swinging bell too. But I really like the detail it has.  What did the Santa Fe pull mostly freight ? Any insite would be greatly welcomed. 

breezinup posted:

Jeff78rr posted:

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

They didn't say that. They only said that every single one of these very limited run engines will be tested. That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done. GE doesn't test every $3000 refrigerator it sells. Samsung doesn't test every $4000 TV it sells. Lennox doesn't test every $7000 HVAC unit it sells. Etc. Etc.

That's not to say that the train manufacturers, Lionel included, don't need to do more testing at their factories. It seems clear that they do.

Samsung learned the hard way that asking your customers to act as the final step of quality control has serious repercussions for the brand's viability and reputation with consumers.  Rest assured the average consumer would not and does not tolerate the level of (or total lack thereof) quality control we have seen in the O gauge hobby the last several years.  So, true, no one tests every item off of an assembly line, but the process must be such so as to ensure the minimization of defects or the firm will pay a high price in the market.

Lionel does what it does because most of the O gauge base tolerates it and goes back for more, even expressing happiness at how well the service experience was to fix the defective product.  Fortunately, it is just a toy/hobby so this counterproductive behavior means very little in the big scheme of things.

breezinup posted:

Jeff78rr posted:

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

They didn't say that. They only said that every single one of these very limited run engines will be tested. That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done. GE doesn't test every $3000 refrigerator it sells. Samsung doesn't test every $4000 TV it sells. Lennox doesn't test every $7000 HVAC unit it sells. Etc. Etc.

That's not to say that the train manufacturers, Lionel included, don't need to do more testing at their factories. It seems clear that they do.

Actually many appliances are tested at the factory,I think all dishwashers,at least all we have put in. Heat pumps too. Many of our high end power tools are tested as well.  Callbacks for repair are expensive.

i read somewhere MTH inspects all their locomotives.

I wonder how much difference is there between Lionel testing a brass loco in 2017 before delivery versus Lionel testing a brass loco, prior to delivery in 1917.

Frank

Scrapiron Scher posted:

I spoke with Dave Olsen and Dean Brasseur today in York at the Lionel display and I asked them if they would promise me that if I ordered the new Hybrid Brass Santa Fe steamer they would inspect and test it prior to shipping it to me.

They said "Every single one of these steamers will be inspected and tested." I asked if I could post that response on the OGR Forum and they said, "Yes !"

And I'm going to guess that if you asked this question last year, before your BTO GG1 order, they would have said the same thing.  Furthermore, what constitutes "inspection and testing" anyway?  I'm not a sponsor, so my thread got pulled, but as I recently reported, my Vision GG1 went back 30 seconds after I put it on the tracks because of jerky operation.  They "repaired" it and supposedly tested it for 4 hours to ensure smooth operation before sending it back to me.  After all that work, which should have been a lot more intense than a simple "inspection and testing," it was sent back to me - and when I received it, it operated in the exact same jerky condition. 

Eliot,

So... you are to test each of these Mikado in North Carolina prior to shipping. They did promise to make you head of quality control, a fitting new career for you only.

These threads are so much fun to read. 

MartyE - I think you mean that facetiously?  You're not wrong, there is an element of constant complainers.  But the fact is, it all boils down to people communicating.  And a common denominator is that there is some level of disappointment in QC.  And, at the end of the day, if the right people don't take that seriously and implement measures to improve QC, they could be alienating hobbyists, which results in folks rethinking their purchases. 

Peter

Peter 

I do get that. 

Ray Lombardo posted

Samsung learned the hard way that asking your customers to act as the final step of quality control has serious repercussions for the brand's viability and reputation with consumers.  Rest assured the average consumer would not and does not tolerate the level of (or total lack thereof) quality control we have seen in the O gauge hobby the last several years.  

A small group of customers who would not tolerate this lack of QC we see in O would be Ham Radio Ops!  

Scrapiron Scher posted:

I spoke with Dave Olsen and Dean Brasseur today in York at the Lionel display and I asked them if they would promise me that if I ordered the new Hybrid Brass Santa Fe steamer they would inspect and test it prior to shipping it to me.

They said "Every single one of these steamers will be inspected and tested." I asked if I could post that response on the OGR Forum and they said, "Yes !"

Boy, you're gonna be maaaaaaaaaaaaaaad if this thing arrives DOA

Scott of 3rdrail test every engine before he ships to customers and we still get defective engines.  Things happen, damage due to shipping and the like.  $&@? Happens

Jini5,

I'm gonna be maaaaaaaaaaaaaaad if the ******* thing comes in defective. Yes, I will! Unfortunately, when it comes to Lionel trains I  have a propensity to forget the immediate past and make the same mistakes. I own it.

I like Dean Brasseur and I would bet there are very few people who have written as many scathing e-mails to Howard Hitchcock and company as I have. I will also write to Guggeneheim and I urge all of you who are dissatisfied to do the same. This is not the only place I write complaints about Lionel. Howard has a file on me. 

Have some pride, Howard. Make this one properly !!!!!

Eliot B. Scher

breezinup posted:

Jeff78rr posted:

So nothing else is inspected and tested? Just wondering on this one.  

They didn't say that. They only said that every single one of these very limited run engines will be tested. That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done. GE doesn't test every $3000 refrigerator it sells. Samsung doesn't test every $4000 TV it sells. Lennox doesn't test every $7000 HVAC unit it sells. Etc. Etc.

That's not to say that the train manufacturers, Lionel included, don't need to do more testing at their factories. It seems clear that they do.

>That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done.

This is *not* true, each locomotive and accessory (and other items) are tested at the factory.  The failure rate is a function of many aspects, not a singular cause and not a discussion I will entertain on a forum.  However, they are *all* tested.

superwarp1 posted:

Scott of 3rdrail test every engine before he ships to customers and we still get defective engines.  Things happen, damage due to shipping and the like.  $&@? Happens

Gary, Thank you for your post, and spot on.

I just don't know where folks get the idea in their mind that Lionel or any other manufacturer/importer doesn't care and actually wants to put out a bad product. Does anyone think they want you unhappy. They want their CS department bored out of their minds. Unfortunately that's just not a reality. Should a better job be done...always should strive to do better. 

Lots of folks seem to know the answers. 

Thanks Jon for posting. 

SantaFeFan posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Scott of 3rdrail test every engine before he ships to customers and we still get defective engines.  Things happen, damage due to shipping and the like.  $&@? Happens

Gary, Thank you for your post, and spot on.

But Scott doesn't advertise one thing and then deliver something else.

Sorry" Lionel "you brought this on yourselves . 

Lionel is by far the leader in defects and discrepancies by leaps and bounds.

You simply cannot blame everything on shipping damage, certainly not control system inccuracies or missing prototypical details that were specified to be there as a selling point.

"We will do this or that" simply doesn't hold any water any more. This all started with the whistle steam Js and Berkshires that didn't. The recent amtrack locos are a disaster. For the non scale folks, the hollow axles on the Lion chief stuff is a nice touch too.

Your biggest fans, like Eliot, have had enough. No amount of rose colored glasses,blinders,or blue and orange boxes will cut it anymore.

Meanwhile mth is delivering loco and car sets for hundreds less than the price of a Lionel Loco alone and complaints are few and far between.

Sorry Marty, I bit a hole in my tongue and couldn't contain myself any longer.  There's an elephant (or two) in the room.

Welcome to Michigan 

Meet Dean Brasseur's, Dad • Bob Brasseur

Lionel's  Promise - To service their customers. Model Railroaders at their brick & mortar train shops and on line train shops.  

Please stop selling locomotives at your on line store.  We are losing to many Brick & Mortar Train Shops.  This has been widely reported about on the OGR Forum.

Gary: Lionel Customer

There is no cure for STUPIDITY  and ADDICTION.Nick

... and this is why I have stuck with post war high quality Lionel trains and avoided the new fancy expensive junk.

Just wait 'til they quit making print catalogs - that day can't be far!

RickO posted:

SantaFeFan posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Scott of 3rdrail test every engine before he ships to customers and we still get defective engines.  Things happen, damage due to shipping and the like.  $&@? Happens

Gary, Thank you for your post, and spot on.

But Scott doesn't advertise one thing and then deliver something else.

Sorry" Lionel "you brought this on yourselves . 

Lionel is by far the leader in defects and discrepancies by leaps and bounds.

You simply cannot blame everything on shipping damage, certainly not control system inccuracies or missing prototypical details that were specified to be there as a selling point.

"We will do this or that" simply doesn't hold any water any more. This all started with the whistle steam Js and Berkshires that didn't. The recent amtrack locos are a disaster. For the non scale folks, the hollow axles on the Lion chief stuff is a nice touch too.

Your biggest fans, like Eliot, have had enough. No amount of rose colored glasses,blinders,or blue and orange boxes will cut it anymore.

Meanwhile mth is delivering loco and car sets for hundreds less than the price of a Lionel Loco alone and complaints are few and far between.

Sorry Marty, I bit a hole in my tongue and couldn't contain myself any longer.  There's an elephant (or two) in the room.

No need to bite your tongue.

Rick I don't wear rose colored glasses contrary to some of the emails I find in my inbox.  Lionel has work to do whether it's shipping related or what have you.  No doubt. The latest reports show that.

Elliot and others have valid issues and complaints. Constructive discussion is almost always welcomed by companies striving to improve. Ones that Lionel should be listening to.  I will never say they shouldn't contact, voice their concerns, or let their voices be heard. Lionel has some good people working for them that want and I feel will solve these issues.

I still appreciate Jon posting here.  He's al so correct that from Lionel's position that discussing it here on the forum isn't the way to go.  This will no doubt be handled internally as it should.  

SantaFeFan posted:

>That's never done with more mass produced items, of course. Selective testing is done.

This is *not* true, each locomotive and accessory (and other items) are tested at the factory.  The failure rate is a function of many aspects, not a singular cause and not a discussion I will entertain on a forum.  However, they are *all* tested.

Then it gets more complicated, in that there are different definitions of "testing." And, in addition, it depends on who's doing the testing. Production with every item being individually tested is rare. 

Production quality control is a very complicated process, and there are many different procedures being utililized in different types of production of different products. One is SQC, Statistical quality control, which refers to the use of statistical methods in the monitoring and maintaining of the quality of products and services. One method, referred to as acceptance sampling, can be used when a decision must be made to accept or reject a group of parts or items based on the quality found in a sample. And so on.