Lionel Santa Fe PA-1 vs Williams Santa Fe PA-1 ?

Depends on what you want. For scale detail, hands down it's the lionel version. The Lionel version offers scale porthole side windows, scale fuel tank and a sound system.

 

the williams will offer the kis principle- 2 motors & reverse with a light bulb to lite it up.

 

IF pricing is the same, you can't go wrong with the lionel model.

The Williams has metal gears and will withstand a bit of brutal handling, however no command control installed. 

While Lionel has command control, possibly Legacy system, and costs more then the Williams, and may give way to problems sooner then the Williams will.

Others have been satisfied with Lionel but I have not been satisfied with Lionel quality for the past 12 years or more. So I would go with the Williams engine.

 

Lee Fritz

The Williams fuel tank is what puts me off.  It's too small, doesn't look "right."

 

Pete

The Williams and now the Bachmann-Williams models lack several major details that we now come to expect from Lionel and MTH models of this locomotive. I would think that the folks at Bachmann would have corrected the missing detail on this model but they have not done anything as yet. Maybe in the near future. I own several of the MTH PAs and I am pleased with them.

The lionel model I am looking at is an older one with TMCC and signal sounds. It has #2000 on it which kinda bothers me.
The fuel tank on the Williams kinda bothers me too.

Flash:

 

I own two of the PAs that you mention. They are a Santa Fe and New York Central models from the late 1990s both have TMCC but manual couplers on the pilot. The model was from the MTH-Lionel arrangement that both companies had from around 1986 to 1993.

Not mentioned about the Williams is that the side port hole windows are definitely the wrong size.

In my humble opinion  like the way the williams run, seem much smoother and quite compared to lionel. I have been a lionel all my life so this is hard for me to say. I am going to try and put command control in a williams engine and see how that works. The detail is probably better on lionel but that makes just easier for me to break something on it as I am clumsy. I really like the smoke and the bright lights with lionel . , charlie

 

 

Not only that but the trucks are too small as well which only exacerbates the appearance of the small tank. Too much 'air' underneath the chassis. Great for 031 operation but not at all good-looking.  

If you appreciate the brutish and magnificent  appearance of the prototype, the Williams model has no place in your roster!

 The early Santa Fe (and NYC) PAs are decent models and run quite well. If you get the matching B unit it will have Railsounds, The A unit has a great horn and a bell which when run together with both units sounding is still quite nice even by today's standards.

That's the 6-18952 model.  I really like the Warbonnet PA's and have that Lionel version but don't like it, and not just because the yellow stripe stops at the headlight and the silver trim is missing from the side cab windows.  Recommend you look at the 6-34568 model (#52) instead.

 

 

 

 

What, me worry?

I am a PA nut.  As near as I can tell, for plastic the MTH is simply accurate with the exception of the anti- climber and possibly the fuel tanks.  The Williams always looked too small to me, but others swear it is the same size as MTH.  I believe the Lionel nose did not taper accurately - a common error, since the Alco drawings show no taper.

 

Before I converted it to metal, I parked the MTH shell next to a Key model ($1200 variety) and it compared well.

I placed a premier scale sf pa aba  w/sound on the buy/sell forum-scale-correct cab. no/s-sound-cab interior/w figure-highly detailed.

Haha.. I'm getting a kick out of this!  Different strokes for different folks.  I could give a crud less about fuel tanks and which model is closer to the prototype.. to me, anyways, I want something that's built like a tank and runs when I turn the dial on my 1950s ZW.  Williams seems to do this better than MODERN Lionel.  I own the D&H and DRGW PA's.  Absolutely love em.  Right now, I've got the D&H A-B-A pulling 14 heavy Lionel Postwar cars running on 0-31 track loaded with zig zags and tight curves.  Best running engines I own.  I picked mine up from Bianco (Trainworld) for $180 during one of their zillion sales.  A good friend has the Lionel's.  They are loaded with all kinds of yackity yack and cost more but, he even admits, my units will out-last and out-run his.  Your choice.  -Scott in STL

williams alco pa , 2 railed , lowered , fixed pilot , I used bare metal foil on sides to represent stainless;

 

Bernie

Is that an amazing photograph, diorama, layout, or photoshop job, Scratchbuilder?  How did you achieve the lighting effect, if not an outdoor shot?

I don't like the way that Lionel model runs. It's like a can motor hybrid / oddball. Avoid it, it's not a very good puller either. Go with newer Lionel version or MTH. Of course Williams is a great runner if you can deal with the looks.

oh, come on, those are real trains! 

Yeah - I agree.  If that is Williams, I take it all back.  Spectacular!

"I don't like the way that Lionel model runs. It's like a can motor hybrid / oddball. Avoid it, it's not a very good puller either. Go with newer Lionel version or MTH. Of course Williams is a great runner if you can deal with the looks."

 

1997 SantaFe and NYC are standard flywheel equipped vertical can motored units.  The only thing "odd" about them is the blind (aka flangeless wheel) is on the inside axle (aka ones closest to fuel tank) instead of the center axle of the truck.  This allows the engine to navigate much tighter turns than an engine with that length and a six axle truck could.  I've run it on O-31 curves.  It looks ridiculous but it runs.  I've also swapped out the signal sounds boards for a RS sound set.  They look good and they run well.  

 

There are newer and more accurate offerings from Lionel and MTH with upgraded electronics/sounds.  The Williams engine is a good deal for the price.  It's an apples/oranges comparison to any of the models offered by the other players that include sounds, command control, extra details.

Here is an old Lionel engine shot the same way at the local CSX yard. This was a dash 8 40c  but I put 8-40b trucks on it , built pilots , weathered it , this was done 10 yrs ago an shot with a throw away camera.

 

This was my beginning of train modeling and not much money , loved the detailed brass engines but could not afford them . But a brass stock rack at the hobby shop  and some time , you can do a lot to enhance the look of average models.

 

Thanks for the comments on the Williams engines.

 

Bernie

scratch builder 1-48,

You did an excellent job on all of the locomotives! Very nice pictures,too!

 

Flash,

You have several choices that would make you happy. Do you want all the 'bells and whistles' or not? Could you afford them if you did? Or, do you want simplicity? I really like the lionel tmcc D&H set I found last summer at a good price(also took a chance given the owners honesty about how they were running and sounding).

And, in SP colors, you'll have a real winner regardless of your choice!

 

Good luck!

One thing that no one has mentioned is the ease of adding additional powered units. If you want more motors for your Williams loco, just buy a power kit and put it in. Easy-peasy. If you want more motors for MTH, you have to find and buy another powered unit. If you want more motors for a Lionel, you really have to be creative and kit bash something else. I am in the middle of one of those bashes right now. I bought a Lionel PA A-B-A and asked the owner beforehand if it had four motors. He said yes. He was mistaken.