Lionel sound boxcar mods?

My hot box has an axle piece like that, it may be a hall effect sensor, magnet in the plastic. Does in have a circuit board above the axle?

Yeah, there's a sensor there over the disc, but the disc is round and metal...from what I can see of it. I fit was plastic that would be an easy answer, but it's metal.

 Lacking a better answer. If it were mine Id check the axle for magnetism/poles with a chunk of "plastic alphabet magnet" Then jump in track power and play around the sensor with the magnet, like Jimmy Page with the Theremin, to see if I could trigger it. 

If its not magnetic, using Infa-Red emitters and receivers with disks or reflective surfaces and black lines alternating, to trigger electronics is common elsewhere, but I haven't seen it in train cars. A digital camera might would let you see a light like this. Works for checking tv remotes l.e.d.s too.     

It's a hall effect sensor, that's what all of those sound cars have that I've worked on.  You could replace it with a reed switch and more than one magnet on the wheel to speed up the chuff rate.  The speaker sounds would probably require a baffle and/or a better speaker.  I'd try the baffle first, if that doesn't sound right, go for a better speaker with a proper baffle.

Snapped a few pics for clarity-

I can see, just under the IC chip, that there's a small pot...I'd guess not to mess with that- right?  

I can see making a disc with 4 tabs for the back of the baffle. 

 

Here's the chuff trigger...you can see the fine metal shavings on it- would this hamper correct chuffing? I'm going to have to look up hall effect so I can understand the working principal involved.

 

The only pot I remember on those is the volume control, so maybe you should give it a "tweak".

 

The chips on the magnet can be removed using something like Duct tape, that's how I get them off of magnets.  That is indeed the standard hall effect sensor/magnet that I've seen on all of these.

 

The speaker baffle can just be some cardboard taped to the back of that open part and also sealing the cracks in the side.  That might make a significant difference, you'll get more bass from the speaker.

 

That lil pot is on the board...you can sort of see it- under that IC chip and above the cap...the round item. The volume adjust is under the frame like MTH.

 

Odd thing-  the hall effect disc is magnetic all the way around according to the small screwdriver I touched to it...don't know how it's supposed to trigger like that.

After I finish messing with yardwork I'll toss some test leads on her and mark where the disc makes any chuffing at. 

When Digital Dynamics was still in business I changed a few of my RS1 box cars to RS4. I think Electric RR now offers a similar kit. The RS4 boards accepted the hall sensor,but you could also use a reed switch and magnet. A 9 volt battery could be used for shut down sounds. For diesel the RS4 boards are voltage dependent for rev rate. The sound of  the DD speaker were very good with the RS4 boards used. DD offered about 5 prototypes for steam and about the same for diesel.

 

A pic of the speaker DD gave in kits is down a bit in this thread

 

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/Bl...=488&categoryId=

 

I guess you could just update the speaker with some improvement but RS4 is much better than the old RS1 boards used in these boxcars.

 

Dale H

Sensing the disks magnetic poles, or breaks in them, as it spins. Its not about the shape you see. Another magnet (vs a screwdriver) would attract or repel depending on pole alignments. Ever see inside an old electronic ignition automotive distributor? The sensor for the "star wheel" under the rotor is a hall effect.

If the pot is not the volume control, I'd probably leave it alone.  You could move it and see if it affects sound, then put it back.

 

I see you got the answer on the magnet, that's how the hall-effect sensor works.

 

Upgrading to RS4 will start costing real money, though it could be done.  The simplest way would be to use the ERR RailSounds Commander, since you'll need a total replacement.  You can wire the hall effect sensor in, though I believe you'll need to find 5V and wire that into the sensor down on the axle, that's not a standard feature of the RS Commander.  Their steamer installation assumes a simple reed switch that doesn't need power.

 

 

The RS4 kits were $100. I think ERR now offers something similar. These were sound only RS4 for conventional,nothing to do with TMCC.

 

Dale H

That's news to me Dale, do you have details?

Wow, neat site! Hey, in your electronics section- the "timed trainstop circuit" -the 12v
modular single shot timer...where'd you find that? I still want to make a station stop circuit and that looks perfect!

 

 

Hello Bob

 

I am a retired electronics technician. I started the blog at JC studios to answer commonly asked questions on the Forum over the years I have been reading,saves me a lot of repetitive writing. A lot of good information over there by some talented modelers.  I have a lot of surplus stuff,relays and timers etc. I sometimes sell parts at my cost to Forum members. If you get stuck I could sell you a few. The 12 volt Infetec timer modules cost me $8 each some years ago,they are a bit uncommon but good industrial quality timers..

 

  If you look at the Mars timer post

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=481&categoryId=

 

The 32391 Mars timer is delay on make very commonly available.. Most any timing circuit desired can be done  in conjunction with one or 2 relays and this module that works on 18 volts and up. The *Bay is sometimes a good source for surplus timers and relays. You have to be a bit patient but you can get your own at good prices. This has a graduated marked pot adjustable for up to 8 minutes. No need to work on small PC boards, or work with formulas for resistors and capacitors. I do not do that anymore unless I have too.  You can however make stuff with 555 chips if you wish.

 

Dale H

John

 

I think ERR stuff was actually in the Lionel catalogue. Someone posted a link once but I do not have it off hand. I will look into it,I may need some kits later.

Dale- I may very well take you up on that, but let me get thru my 1st paycheck in 2 weeks{been off for 3 months-ouch} and we'll go from there...I would want 1-2 of those timers!

 

Dale/John- I know ERR has sound boards, but I "thought" they had to be used with some kind of command board{AC/DC/Mini/Cruise} for a given engine...but if there's a way to take an ERR sound board and make a sound car in any venue{electric/steam/diesel} sans a command board...I'm all ears!...and that would be cool!

Not reading and considering electrical info by Dale H, Dale Manquen, or Gunnrunner John would be a mistake..for you...I mean that in a good way. They are one the reason I joined. Thanks again for the help you unknowingly lent to a "reader". 

Dale, AFAIK, there is just the ERR RailSounds Commander as a sound option.  Here's the page from the Lionel 2013 Signature Catalog, that's all it mentions.  When you go to ERR, there are no other sound options either, the Sound Commander is long gone.

 

 

www.electricrr.com

 

Went on their site It is billed as a stand alone system with options of prototypes for $100 a pop.

 

The site seems to disable links to sub sets. Click on "products",then "Railsounds commander" The "ordering information"

 

Seems similar to what DD offered but the boards are a bit smaller. Also click on "instruction manual" For steam they give you a reed switch. Not sure how good the speaker is they give you. I get good ones from aftermarket suppliers.

 

Dale H

 

"Dale/John- I know ERR has sound boards, but I "thought" they had to be used with some kind of command board{AC/DC/Mini/Cruise} for a given engine...but if there's a way to take an ERR sound board and make a sound car in any venue{electric/steam/diesel} sans a command board...I'm all ears!...and that would be cool!"

 

 

 

Unlike PS1,Ps2,Ps3 which are integrated into DCS, RS2.5 thru RS4 is or can be made to be a stand alone sound system independent from TMCC. Fidelity wise, with a good speaker it is better than any PS2 system I have heard. The 9 volt battery provides shutdown sounds when power is removed in conventional and maintains sound over bad track. I assume the ERR units are like the DD units.

 

I installed RS4 units in my MTH dummy units on some of my MTH ABA sets and turn the volume off on the PS1 power units. Room for a good speaker and baffling. Sound quality is much better

 

Dale H

The speaker is a decent speaker with a good baffle, it normally sounds pretty good.

So do the ERR and RS4 boards have an onboard amp to drive the speaker?

There are better grade speakers out there to be had, buyt like anything, it's a trade off.

-cost

-size overall

-increased magnet strength messing with other times - I've heard of off the shelf replacement speakers having magnets so powerful they were pulling the unloading stakes over in the long version of the lionel log loader/unloader...that's pretty strong!

 

Looking at lionels supplied speaker, it's not that bad, but it could be improved upon without a doubt- the only issue is that with the given sound, I don't think it would be worth it since the sounds are rather generic. I'd tweek a second chuff out of her and add a baffle plate and not ask anything more simply because I don't think it has much more to give.

Now, install a better sound board, then oh yeah it would...I just don't think the supplied sound board would justify the cost unless it was pretty cheap.   

Bob, the ERR RailSounds Commander is a complete package, it includes the chuff switch (for steam) and the speaker as well.  The speaker already has a baffle, it just needs a place where it fits.  I have no complaints with the quality of the RailSounds commander stuff, it's worked well in all my installations.  You can also frequently get a discount off the list prices from some of the forum members that are ERR dealers.

The best way to improve the sounds is to seal the car body. You want to hear the sound from the front of the speaker, but not from the back of the speaker. The volume of the speaker enclosure has to be large enough so as not to dampen the speaker, (the little speaker baffles are too small) and the speaker enclosure wants to be sealed. The sound from the rear of the speaker is out of phase with the sound from the front of the speaker. That will kill the bass notes because the phase difference cancels the bass out.

Even the small baffles make a huge difference.  I've tried speakers open and then with my spray can baffle on them, HUGE difference in both the bass and the volume.

Spray can baffle? Like a Krylon or Rustoleum Cap? Great idea.

I save the lids for just this purpose.  I sometimes cut them down if the full height won't fit, but I do try to use as large a baffle as I can.  OTOH, even a very small one will make a large difference in the sound volume and quality.

After reading this, I am thinking about installing a used Railsounds board in a conventional 0-4-O k-line switcher. It only has an electronic whistle. Can someone comment on what will be the simplest to procure and install. A hall sensor or a reed switch to get the chuff. And where can I get either. Part# 's etc. will be greatly appreciated. All I have is the board. Thanks in advance.

The hall effect sensor has to have the magnet on the axle, the reed switch is what you normally install after the fact.  Also, if you're not using the stock Lionel motherboard, you may have to skywire for a hall effect sensor, it requires power as well as ground and the return signal.

 

You need a lot more than the board to add sound, you also need the matching RailSounds power supply, speaker, and the chuff switch.  Here's one solution you could use, this is a power supply board used in some Lionel locomotives, the RailSounds audio board plugs into this one.

 

In order to use this, you'll also have to round up the required Lionel connectors, etc.

 

For this kind of task, I normally pick up the ERR RailSounds Commander, it's the whole package with the audio, power supply, speaker, chuff switch, and any required connectors.

 

Ah, good to be back...so John, or anyone, the lionel hall effect system- this is activated by polarity and not just a magnetic source...right?

Does the polar N and S trigger it on and off...meaning I have to have a N and S to retrigger dual chuffs?{quad magnets}

I was thinking of two ways to try a double chuff-

1- make a new plastic drum, install it where the current metal one is, and have 4 small magnets in it to trigger the dual chuff{N/S/N/S}

2- trying to turn the sensor 90 degrees and mount magnets on the wheel back to trigger the OEM sensor.

Thoughts?....

Here's a good look at the Hall Effect Sensor and how it works.  Basically, it senses the reversal of a magnetic field.  You would get the same effect with the reed switch, and it doesn't require power.

 

If you're putting the magnets on a tender or pilot wheel, you will only need two magnets for four-chuffs, as the driver wheels are about twice the circumference.