Lionel TMCC Smoke Unit Troubleshoot- Voltage Regulator ?

I'd bet on the AC Regulator, they're a pretty high failure item.  If the serial data line reads good from the regulator to pin 24 of the R2LC, that would tend to eliminate serial data as the issue.

I purchased a new Lionel Voltage Regulator (691ACRGES2) and was poised to install it.  The new regulator has an extra black wire and the browns aren't differentiated. 

Old:  Rd, Bk, Br, Br/Bk

New: Rd, Bk, Bk, Br, Br

How should I wire the new one?

The Brown closest to the output triac is the regulator out.

The brown on the corner is the serial in.

The two blacks are AC common. 

The red is the AC hot.

Thanks so much Carl.  I can't see the terminals since Lionel secures the VR in shrink tubing.  I got my magnifiers out and one of the browns does have a thin black stripe.

I checked resistance between blacks and they are connected.   

I'm good to install now. 

Just as John had recommended, it was a bad voltage regulator.  We now have heat, fan and smoke.

I cut the shrink tubing off the old VR and found the fifth wire (black) snipped so all wires are now accounted for. 

Thanks OGR Forum friends!

It was an easy recommendation, I'm waiting on two of them from Lionel now.  They are a pretty high failure item.

I own a Lionel TMCC J class #611 (6-38095) and I've got a similar problem. The fan motor is working but the heating element is not. The original element died and needed to be replaced. I replaced the heating element, added fresh bating with fluid, and replaced the fan motor. All screws and nuts have been tightened. I looked at the top of the smoke unit board and none of the traces are nicked or damaged. The smoke on/off switch under the engine is set to on and when the engine is running I can hear the fan motor going but the element doesn't get hot.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Your locomotive also uses a regulator. Its #58 on the parts diagram: Lionel 38095 Parts

Peter, as Rick points out, the voltage regulator is by far the top suspect.  I hope you used an 8 ohm resistor in that one, Lionel recommended replacing the 6 ohm one years ago, they were eating regulators.  I keep a stock of regulators on hand, they fail that often.

Thank you for the responses and yes I did use an 8 ohm resistor to replace the old burned out one. I do have one question about wiring the regulator. The original regulator has 4 wires (brown, black, red and black). while the new regulator has 5 (brown, black, red, and two more black wires). Do two of the black wires get connected together or is there another way to wire the new regulator? 

The 2 black wires are electrically connected on the board.  So you can either simply cut one or combine them together and connect to the appropriate wire on the chassis.   

@Steims posted:

The 2 black wires are electrically connected on the board.  So you can either simply cut one or combine them together and connect to the appropriate wire on the chassis.   

Thank you and thanks to everyone for the help. I'll post again once I finish the repair. 

When you do the repair, the easiest way to do it is to cut the new regulator wires to about 2" and just splice into the existing four wires.  When you cut the old regulator out, leave yourself plenty of length for the splice.  Trying to follow the wires to the final connections is doing it the hard way.

Following up on this discussion I'm happy to say the repair was a success and it was indeed the AC regulator the gave out.  Thanks again everyone for all your help. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

When you do the repair, the easiest way to do it is to cut the new regulator wires to about 2" and just splice into the existing four wires.  When you cut the old regulator out, leave yourself plenty of length for the splice.  Trying to follow the wires to the final connections is doing it the hard way.

@Steims posted:

The 2 black wires are electrically connected on the board.  So you can either simply cut one or combine them together and connect to the appropriate wire on the chassis.   

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Peter, as Rick points out, the voltage regulator is by far the top suspect.  I hope you used an 8 ohm resistor in that one, Lionel recommended replacing the 6 ohm one years ago, they were eating regulators.  I keep a stock of regulators .

Do you have a communication or link to that Lionel recommendation?  I think I have recently replaced a 6 ohm for a 6 ohm on another locomotive.   Interested if that was an across the board replacement recommendation or only on certain models/years.  

I don't have it right now, but it was universal recommendation.  The 6 ohm was just too much of a load and was cooking the regulators.  That's a step I do to anything that comes through with a 6 ohm resistor.  Note that on Legacy, they finally started bolting the triac to the frame to try to keep it from cooking.  They don't cook as often, but the Legacy ones still fail.

Happy New Year.  Sorry for rejuvenating an old thread but it was the closest i could find to the issue i am having.

I have a Pennsy M-1A 6-38056 that won't smoke.  The board was looked quite burnt and the sleeve was burned to the resistor.  When i removed the board the capacitor fell off and one end of the resistor was loose - the board got so hot that it melted the solder.  I replaced the board and still no smoke.

digging a little deeper i found the pictured component that looks like it has gotten very hot.  I'm guessing this is the voltage regulator discussed above.  from Lionel's support page i assume this is AC Reg Board cs-691ACRGE01-p which is marked as obsolete and unavailable.

Is this picture the voltage regulator that is being discussed above and if so, is there a new part number or an acceptable replacement part?

Thank You

The Smoke regulator is now an obsolete part. Some of us have developed a work around for this very problem,…..however, usually the case of anemic smoke, or erratic smoke operation. You can bypass the regulator, and install a TMCC value resistor in the 20-27 ohm range. This does require some planning, and isolation of the smoke resistor from the PCB. The regulator is left in place,…..we just leave it sit there, allowing it to believe it’s doing a wonderful job,…..you have to isolate the traces of the smoke element resistor, and wire one side to ground, the other side back straight to the feature out on the radio board. First, you need to verify if your fan still spins like it supposed to, and your radio board doesn’t have a cooked smoke ( feature ) output. If those two items work, you can proceed with a bypass. If not, another solution would be GRJ’s super chuffer and chuff generator. You can rebuild that smoke unit, again, isolating a few items to work with John’s stuff….so there are a couple options for repair….

Pat

Thank you Pat.  I would be in way over my head attempting the work around you suggesting. I guess for now I'll let all the other engines fill the room with smoke and pretend one is smoking too.  If i just turn the smoke switch to off i can leave everything as is and it won't cause any more issues or should i remove the voltage regulator and insulate all the wires going to it?

Thank you.

Brad

If you turn the smoke switch off, the regulator no longer receives power and will be inert.

Well, the deed is done, she’s rightfully cooked herself, …..in your shoes, for right now, I’d put a new piece of heat shrink around that cooked regulator, and put it all back together as is, and yes, just leave the smoke switch off,….

Pat

I have a similar problem on my unit.  The fan spins and stops spins and stops for a second then spins and stops.  The heating coil is not burnt at all and it seems that its not coming on at all.  I had it open and watched the fan on and off and the heat coil never heated up. The crazy point of this is when I first put the engine on the track it smoked like crazy. but when I shut it down it never had worked since. I am running it off a KZ 190 watt trans.  Any thoughts on this??   Doug

@Dougie fresh posted:

Any thoughts on this??

Yes, start with the EXACT Lionel product number so we can know what we're talking about.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, start with the EXACT Lionel product number so we can know what we're talking about.

Yeah that would help..sorry..Its a SD-70 Diesel  72-8227-250  it has the trainmaster and odyssey system.  But I only run it in the conventional.  Doug

The product number is 6-xxxxx.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The product number is 6-xxxxx.

6-31710..it took some digging to find it.  I bought this engine online and it had no box or manual. I had to down load it and print it off.  It was made in 2003.. Doug

This should be easy.  Since it's the 27 ohm element, it's either the power supply for the fan (three components on the PCB), or the fan motor.  You can test the fan motor with a three to five volt DC power source.  It's best to measure the current draw as that's frequently the issue.

If that isn't it, check if something has come unsoldered on the smoke unit PCB, it's usually either capacitor loose or the regulator has crapped out.  All the parts for the P/S are a couple dollars to fix it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This should be easy.  Since it's the 27 ohm element, it's either the power supply for the fan (three components on the PCB), or the fan motor.  You can test the fan motor with a three to five volt DC power source.  It's best to measure the current draw as that's frequently the issue.

If that isn't it, check if something has come unsoldered on the smoke unit PCB, it's usually either capacitor loose or the regulator has crapped out.  All the parts for the P/S are a couple dollars to fix it.

I will check it tomorrow, Thank you Carl and I will post to you my findings.   Funny thou, the first time I ran it the other day it smoked like crazy, I even to a video of it.  The next time I powered it up..nothing.  Just the fan spins and stops spins and stops..Doug

Like I said, either the fan motor is drawing too much current, or the three component little power supply on the smoke unit has a problem.   Should be pretty simple to track down.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Like I said, either the fan motor is drawing too much current, or the three component little power supply on the smoke unit has a problem.   Should be pretty simple to track down.

Carl  I do not have the smarts to follow this down.  I have taken picture for you and all else to see what I have.  Question. if the problem is in the top piece with the cap.& resistor can I not just replace it with a new or rebuilt one?  If I have to test power that comes from the small plugs that goes into it, where do I start.  If I can just get a new/ rebuilt one.......do you have these and could you fix it for me..Doug 

Update.. 

@Dougie fresh posted:

Carl  I do not have the smarts to follow this down.  I have taken picture for you and all else to see what I have.  Question. if the problem is in the top piece with the cap.& resistor can I not just replace it with a new or rebuilt one?  If I have to test power that comes from the small plugs that goes into it, where do I start.  If I can just get a new/ rebuilt one.......do you have these and could you fix it for me..Doug

update.  I get no reading on that resister that is on the top of the green board.  At first it would just to a high number then down to 0 and stay there.  The heating coil is good as I tested it.  But I am still at a lost, unless it is that small black resistor and with Radio shack gone where do you get these anyway.  I have no idea what I need here.  Doug

@Dougie fresh posted:

Carl  I do not have the smarts to follow this down.  I have taken picture for you and all else to see what I have.  Question. if the problem is in the top piece with the cap.& resistor can I not just replace it with a new or rebuilt one?  If I have to test power that comes from the small plugs that goes into it, where do I start.  If I can just get a new/ rebuilt one.......do you have these and could you fix it for me..Doug

Update here..Ok I have figured out that the resistor..Its the thing'ie that gets hot. does have 27ohms.  I put it all back and powered it up. it, the resistor does not get hot and the fan still just spins and stops spins and stops.     I have found on line that I can order from Lionel parts the complete top assembly for 15$.  Maybe that will solve this.

Reprogram the engine, you have it set for a strobe, not a smoke unit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Reprogram the engine, you have it set for a strobe, not a smoke unit.

Will try this in the morning and give you a up date..doug

@Dougie fresh posted:

Will try this in the morning and give you a up date..doug

Oh can this be done with just my transformer and cycling the run/ pro switch??

This needs to be done with a TMCC of Legacy command system.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This needs to be done with a TMCC of Legacy command system.

I have a first gen. cab-1 controller. Just hoping I would not have to dig it out and set it up. but I will..  Thank you again.

@Dougie fresh posted:

Will try this in the morning and give you a up date..doug

Well my train room is smoke filled...but here is what I found.  It changed nothing by using AUX-8.  I found in the CAB book that came with it, AUX 8 turns off the lights and smoke, BUY AUX -9 turns on all the bells whistles and smoke......Thank you for your time..you have been kind to a old guy with toys that are to complex for me... Doug

Substitute ACRG for Lionel 6-38090, Lionmaster Challenger. I can't find any ACRG in the Lionel parts. all seem to be obsolete. I found a similar part number on TRAINZ.com, 691-ACRG-ES2. Would this have the functions needed to run the Semi Smart Smoke Unit? Lionel part for this Loco is AC Reg Board Generic. The heater reads 8 ohms, fan runs when bumped with a 9V battery both polarities.

A few days ago it was smoking great. Then I tried the TMCC High setting using the ENG ID, Aux2, Aux1, 9, Aux1. No response.

Or should a different repair option be tried?