lionel track of the future

Tesla tried transmitting power wirelessly 100 years ago.

For the power required and the space we have, it will not work. You need an actual, physical contact to transmit the power we need at 18 volts. You can transmit data this way, but not motor power.

Someone else will come here and explain better than I why/how it won't work, but the bottom line is that it won't.

I think I understand what you are describing but you haven't described anything that would actually transfer the electrical power (wattage)(P=E*I).   That is what the transformer to copper wire to third rail to the pickup roller system is doing.   You could transfer the power through the air but I don't think anyone is willing to pay the price involved with that system or deal with the safety issues.   You could transfer/transmit radio waves through air with the system you described which is similar to the cab controls used today.

As others have stated, it's a long way from reality.

The relatively low power for charging a low current device like a smart phone battery is apparently making strides in this area, but that is much lower power than trains.

-Dave

I like your thinking however...

Hang tight guys, at some time a bright young person WILL come along with a radical new idea that actually works!

c.sam posted:

I like your thinking however...

Hang tight guys, at some time a bright young person WILL come along with a radical new idea that actually works!

I was thinking the same thing.  It is the dreamers who bring innovation unheard, of or previously thought impossible, to light.

YOU keep at it, paigetrain!

And here I was thinking Super-O was going to come back with more radii...

Model railroading within your lifetime will be a matter of 3D holographic technology projected by an app on your personal device (future term for smartphone) and will include a third rail only if you are inclined toward nostalgia.  The product design and software engineers presently are determining which olfactory receptor neurons to target for each of the virtual smoke fluid scents.

What, me worry?

Tesla is offering wireless charging on some of it's models

You guys ever heard of two rail?  It works, it is easy to do, and it eliminates a lot of the anguish associated with trying to hide the center rail.

If you are worried about the 3rd rail, go 2 rail, S gauge or HO.........

I like the 3rd rail. To me, o gauge wouldnt be o gauge without it....

To elimate the 3rd rail, is there a way to use lithium-ion batteries mounted in a  box car (or 2) immediately behind the engine?    You may get an hour or so run time before needing a charge.   Then perhaps use an RC control system similar to RC cars and planes.??   

See my vids here:     https://www.youtube.com/user/zdrummer72/videos

I like your thinking - keep thinking outside the box and don't let folks tell you things can't be done.  Maybe it can't be done now, but no one knows the future.  Non-contact inductive charging has been done for years (remember the Interplak toothbrush of the 1990's?), so it would not be wise to say that power can't be transferred with even today's technology.  But, we are at a tipping point in our hobby.  Batteries have become so energy dense that as others have mentioned, it's possible to make battery powered engines and rolling stock that could be recharged - there certainly are plastic track trains out there doing this now.  The future may be that there is no longer power on the tracks anyway.  But, I'm sure a lot of us will still want to go old school and keep doing it like when we were young.

No need for the 3rd rail anymore. It's time that they make a 2 rail HiRail track system IMHO. I'm 42 and the vast majority of people my age and younger that I've spoken to about this topic prefer 2 rail. Not a scientific test obviously, but I believe that once I'm at the upper end of the age range in 30 ish years there won't be enough people left that actually want 3 rail to make it a viable product line. If I were Lionel I would be thinking about introducing an alternative to 3 rail soon.

I believe that sooner than later O scale engines will ALL have self-powered batteries along with the computer chip.  The best thing is that the days of TRACK CLEANING will be over.  And there will ONLY be two rails less someone like me who has thousands of dollars in 3 rail track that I'll die with.

Honestly, if you want rid of the third rail... They make 2-rail trains in every scale including O.  I know I'm stating the obvious but the whole "ditch the third rail" thing comes up perennially here...

Scotty!

We need to beam power aboard!

paigetrain posted:

i have interesting idea for lionel track with an invisible middle rail 

inside the fastrack style road bed is a hidden wire with remote sensors that carries the track power

instead of pickup rollers the units that need track power have sensors hidden in the trucks that pick up the signal from the hidden track sensors

there is no visible middle rail 

just an idea 

what do you think

I think you need to learn more about basic electricity and electronics.

sord posted:

............. Non-contact inductive charging has been done for years (remember the Interplak toothbrush of the 1990's?), so it would not be wise to say that power can't be transferred with even today's technology.  But, we are at a tipping point in our hobby.  Batteries have become so energy dense that as others have mentioned, it's possible to make battery powered engines and rolling stock that could be recharged - there certainly are plastic track trains out there doing this now.  The future may be that there is no longer power on the tracks anyway.  But, I'm sure a lot of us will still want to go old school and keep doing it like when we were young.

I'll quote a line from Jurassic Park:  "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."

While it may be possible, I'm in no hurry to have trains emulate the challenges with battery operation, especially if it involves specialty battery packs that will be either costly or impossible to replace after a number of years.  Do we really need yet another aspect of engines that will need to be retrofitted with some 3rd party solution if such a path is taken?  (Most considered the advance of PS3 to remove the dependence on even a small battery as a positive development.)

Needing to recharge an engine before using it if it's been sitting for a while, worrying about where to get replacement battery packs after a few years, limits on use before needing to charge again, etc.  No thanks!

Someone mentioned Tesla.  I'm not sure I want technology that may be viable in a $100,000+ car to be built into model/toy trains.  The "cool" factor is not worth it to me.

As others have said, if you really hate the third rail, there are 2 rail trains in many scales.  The original poster's question was asking about transferring the power wireless-ly, not going to batteries to get rid of the 3rd rail.

-Dave

lol...

At least OGR is consistent with the usual old people trying to discourage visions of the younger set.

EscapeRocks posted:

lol...

 

At least OGR is consistent with the usual old people trying to discourage visions of the younger set.

I'm in my early 40's, but I guess in my head maybe I'm 80.

Lionel Super O with wide radius and more switches!

I'm with DANDEO50 on bringing back Lionel Super O track!

I remember in the early sixties visiting hardware stores that had their layouts fitted with Super O.

Those Super O layouts attracted lots of attention due to their realism.

Thanks,

Phil  

bob2 posted:

You guys ever heard of two rail?  It works, it is easy to do, and it eliminates a lot of the anguish associated with trying to hide the center rail.

I agree. While I think the OP has an innovative, out of the box idea, I think it would certainly be a WHOLE LOT easier and cheaper to just produce 2 Rail trains that have the same compromises for tight radius curves as today's 3 Rail trains.

I have an idea!  Let's eliminate the middle rail and just power one of the outside rails!  Wait... I guess that's what they call 2-rail O-scale.

paigetrain posted:

i have interesting idea for lionel track with an invisible middle rail 

inside the fastrack style road bed is a hidden wire with remote sensors that carries the track power

instead of pickup rollers the units that need track power have sensors hidden in the trucks that pick up the signal from the hidden track sensors

there is no visible middle rail 

just an idea 

what do you think

And the obvious question, why not just expand  the S gauge two rail Fastrack line to O gauge? Simple and cheap...     Lionel probably thought of that long ago except I believe just as near perfect MTH scale mile smoke units and bi-directional communication which eliminates the need for sensor tracks. They also probably hold a patent on easily switchable 3 to 2 rail track power.  I'm sure the last thing they want is make a track for all MTH motive power.  

Joe

Maerklin in Germany has made an HO track with nearly invisible center rail for many many years.    they put metal studs in the center of the ties that look a round head nail and put wipers on the loco trucks and what not.    They have been considered the High End model train maker in Germany for many years and have used this system.    They may not be the most detailed anymore and I think they have some straight 2 rail stuff, but last I saw they still did this "studded" rail system with switches and crossovers and what not.    

JC642 posted:

paigetrain posted:

i have interesting idea for lionel track with an invisible middle rail 

inside the fastrack style road bed is a hidden wire with remote sensors that carries the track power

instead of pickup rollers the units that need track power have sensors hidden in the trucks that pick up the signal from the hidden track sensors

there is no visible middle rail 

just an idea 

what do you think

And the obvious question, why not just expand  the S gauge two rail Fastrack line to O gauge? Simple and cheap...     Lionel probably thought of that long ago except I believe just as near perfect MTH scale mile smoke units and bi-directional communication,  they also probably hold a patent on easily switchable 3 to 2 rail track power.  I'm sure the last thing they want is make a track for all MTH motive power.  

Joe

I like your idea of expanding the S scale line to O gauge. 

Wouldn't Lionel be making track for future MTH motive power right now but in S scale? (when the MTH F units show up) I don't believe any manufacturer that produces track worries that someone will use other brands of trains on that track. They know it happens. They're just happy if you buy their track. Just my opinion.

It was reported here some time ago that MTH did not renew their patent on the 3/2 technology so Lionel could in theory make 3/2 locomotives if they want to without worrying about a lawsuit.

I suspect that it likely will be battery power, rather than wireless transmission of power, that will be the future. There is no reason why with battery power we can't have trains running on two rail that is hi rail (ie it has the compromises that allow three rail to work in smaller spaces than scale 2 rail, trains that can negotiate tighter curves though scale, semi scale, etc). Batteries have advanced a lot, and in the not too distant future they will charge faster, last longer and will likely also be charge denser, which means the batteries will be smaller. 50 years ago integrated circuits were still in their early days and solid state meant discrete transistor circuits for the most part, but IC's become more complicated, denser, and look at the difference, batteries are still in many ways in their early days in terms of what they can do.  So yep, a battery runs down, needs recharging, but so does a real steam or diesel locomotive, they have to refuel, too. If you had a battery that could charge in 5 minutes and last let's say an hour, that could simulate the real thing. Don't want that limitation? You could use inductive charging on the layout to keep the battery charged, for continuous running. The third rail exists for ease of wiring primarily, with battery there is no wiring. 

It could also be that three rail stays around a long time, it survived HO, survived a lot of things, and maybe there always will be people who like it and want it, and that is cool, too. The technology I am talking about isn't there yet, it has some generations to iterate through to be what we may want, rapid charging is especially problematic (basically, rapid charge has its costs, either rapid charge=rapid discharge, or in rapid charging you decrease the life of the battery, the high powered chargers for cell phones decrease the life of the battery by as much as 50% according to several articles I just read), batteries have problems with overheating (Samsung Galaxy Note 7, Dell Computers, Boeing 787 all had problems with that). 

prrjim posted:

Maerklin in Germany has made an HO track with nearly invisible center rail for many many years.    they put metal studs in the center of the ties that look a round head nail and put wipers on the loco trucks and what not.    They have been considered the High End model train maker in Germany for many years and have used this system.    They may not be the most detailed anymore and I think they have some straight 2 rail stuff, but last I saw they still did this "studded" rail system with switches and crossovers and what not.    

The Maerklin stud rail system is just as ingrained in Europe as Lionel 3-rail is here.  The only difference is the scale.

Maerklin has pretty much kept up with the detail levels of the other Euro manufacturers.  The Trix line is essentially 2-rail Maerklin. Roco, Fleishmann, Brawa, Lilliput and others (even MTH) make HO trains that operate on the stud rail.

Maerklin's other scale ventures in Gauge 1 and Z are two rail systems.

Rusty

prrjim posted:

Maerklin in Germany has made an HO track with nearly invisible center rail for many many years... 

Yes, stud contact center rail is a practical and effective way to disguise a center rail. Some of the stud-contact arrangements are almost invisible with good ballasting. Locos need skids instead of rollers for pickup. But the O-gauge hobby is already fragmented with options of 3-rail and 2-rail, high-rail and scale, track power and on-board battery power. And O-gauge is just a fraction of the entire model railroading scene. There just isn't the market for yet another variation. Of course, creative and industrious modelers can always build their own customized ideas.

European modelers make more use of stud-contact systems. Peco has a setup that appears to be an add-on option for two-rail OO track.

Paige's idea of wireless power transmission is fundamentally impractical as already explained by previous posters.

Perhaps it's true that some of us stereotypical senile old seniors, with decades of actual hands-on model railroading experience, actually know what works and what doesn't work, what ideas are new and what ideas are old and still used or not used, what is achievable if you actually get in there and build it with your own hands instead of just dreaming up ideas in your head.

Hudson J1e posted:

bob2 posted:

You guys ever heard of two rail?  It works, it is easy to do, and it eliminates a lot of the anguish associated with trying to hide the center rail.

I agree. While I think the OP has an innovative, out of the box idea, I think it would certainly be a WHOLE LOT easier and cheaper to just produce 2 Rail trains that have the same compromises for tight radius curves as today's 3 Rail trains.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. 2 Rail HiRail trains. MTH just needs to remove the center rail from ScaleTrax and they've got the track system. You can make just about ANY diesel operate on O-72 (36"r) even with fixed pilots. Steam engines only need blind drivers and typical tail beam compromises and they are good to go around the same curves as their 3 rail cousins.

Eventually the vocal younger minority will be heard by the manufactures or they will migrate to other scales.

Speaking of Peco 2 rail track. I have been looking for Peco switches for a long time. Especially double crossovers. I have seen them advertised but was always not able to find them anywhere. I am still looking, any iinformation  will be appreciated.

I have Qi wireless charging on my Motorola Droid Turbo. It takes a long time to charge the phone, and the phone is warm, almost hot to the touch. I have read in the reviews of Qi docks for cars that Qi cannot keep up with using a navigation app with the GPS circuitry and the screen on all the time. I have found the position of the phone to be pretty critical to it working at all.

Perhaps you could have batteries in the engine that get charged on certain straight sections with the third rail. Then switches and curves could be dead two rail. Since its just charging power, it could be AC or DC.

I am happy with 3 rail O gauge track. I can run just about any O gauge trains made in over 100 years on my track. 2 rail high rail track won't do that. 

If anyone really wants 2 rail track they can go to 2 rail scale. I don't think 2 rail non scale would appeal to very many model railroaders.

Just my 2 cents, and that's about all it's worth.

For as passionate as some are about 2 rail track, it doesn't line up with the reality. The Lionel name for most means toy 3-rail trains, for which Lionel has sold millions of over the decades. With the advent of TMCC in 1995, Lionel started offering the scale 3-rail trains, that many clamor over. But how "many" is many? Lionel has said they have several thousand serious modeler customers and several million starter set customers, and everyone in between.

When Lionel completed the bargain priced K-Line KCC SD70MAC,  Jerry Calabrese said they made just over 3,000, which was "an extremely large production run for a scale locomotive." I doubt those numbers have changed. Meanwhile Richard Kughn said the NYC Flyer starter set outsold every other starter set combined, meaning outside of track, it was the best selling item in the Lionel catalog. The traditional Polar Express, according to Lionel, is the biggest selling single train set in their entire history. NO small feature when one considers the popularity of Lionel during the 1950's.

MTH has tried and offered some locomotives for 2-rail and they didn't sell enough to warrant further attempts. If there was REALLY a market for 2-rail O gauge, it would have probably happened by now.

In a recent track survey I saw, tubular O and FasTrack had over 71% of the market , with every other track type falling into the remaining 29%. Lionel especially is most likely not going to abandon such a large well-established market. Even with Lionel's scale products, many are engineered to negotiate a 36" diameter curve, because they know full-well, they would lose necessary sales otherwise.

The biggest challenge facing the future of the hobby is not 2 rails versus 3 rails, but that nearly half the nation's kids are being raised in a single parent home. While not written in stone, this has been a hobby for fathers and their sons. Joshua Cohen certainly took advantage of that in both advertising and product.

Speaking from my own observations, I just don't see many single mothers, who are time constrained (and often financially too), building train layouts with their sons. Unfortunately they'll buy a video game because it's self-contained, no parental involvement necessary and no power tools required. No basement needed. No plywood and 2x4's, etc.

It's not at all that kids don't like trains anymore. But someone has to foster the interest and take the time (and MONEY) to engage and build the layout. Which might explain Lionel's new Mega Tracks toy... it engages kids with their creativity and with a minimum of parental time involved.

BUT who knows? Lionel tried command control decades ago and that failed. And Lionel made attempts at scale products in the past and those didn't do well. Times have changed, and will continue to do so.

That's why I enjoy the hobby today. And on my layout, 027 tubular track is STILL the track of the future. And who knows, maybe someone else will pick up production of 027 track... that's how K-Line got their start in the train business.

Glad that I didn't spend the $2500 that I had budgeted for Atlas track & switches 2 years ago when I built a new layout.  I wanted to, just couldn't find what I needed.  So I built it using my old tubular with the intent of upgrading in the future.  By the way the $2500 is long gone.  MTH Premier Diesels, rolling stock & Woodland Scenics Buildings gobbled that up long ago.  Maybe 2 rail is the way to go.  My engines are convertible (at a price).  What needs to be done to rolling stock?  All new trucks and couplers? 

Two-rail O gauge already exists. If that's what you want, there is no need to wait for the future.

The reason it isn't more commonplace? The marketplace for it is extremely small. Few buyers. A small minority against three-rail enthusiasts.

I am amazed that some of these two-rail hobbyists act like two-rail O gauge is a new trend just waiting to flourish. It has been around since the 1930s. Over the years, various manufacturers have tried to make a go of it in two-rail O, including Atlas and Rivarossi in the 1970s. It never amounted to enough of a market to sustain itself as a prime O gauge product independent of three rail.

Now, to those who think that when the three-rail hobbyists die off that there will suddenly be a huge market for two-rail O, guess again. Instead, the reality is that there will be a group of so few O hobbyists that the costs will be at least double the current list prices, in order to amortize the tooling costs in a smaller market, or no marketplace at all. Two-rail O is hanging on only by grace of the market generated by three-rail enthusiasts, who make production practical for O gauge products.

Two-rail O might be more popular, except for that little fact that those so intensely interested in two-rail modeling have this alternative called HO. That scale and gauge is the largest in the country in terms of marketplace.

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

The traditional Polar Express, according to Lionel, is the biggest selling single train set in their entire history. NO small feature when one considers the popularity of Lionel during the 1950's. 

Probably should consider the US population in 1955 was 165 million.  2015 population was 320 million.  The number of children increased from 55 million to 73 million in the same timeframe.  

I thought 2-rail was more difficult to set up than 3-rail since the rail polarity gets reversed when a track goes from one switch to another switch that changes the direction of the train.  I thought what made 3-rail popular was literally plug and play - which a lot of folks do with temporary carpet layouts.  No worries about special wiring - just set up the track any way you want with switches and the outside rails are always ground.  If we eliminate the 3rd rail, it seems like it wouldn't be as easy to plug and play.  But, I haven't set up an HO layout with a reversing loop lately so maybe that's been solved.