Lionel Trainmaster unit in conventional

What is a N&W 2-6-6-4 Trainmaster?  A Lionel product number would be useful here.

Crazy J RR posted:

Hi guys!

 Any chance of a lower speed (I wont say low speed) seems out of the question.  However, it is not responding on start up as described in the manual.  The headlight do not just come on after "seeing" conventional as described in the manual.  The lights flicker immediately and sometimes the loco jumps into action.  

So, is this just that the unit needs the minimum 8 volts to move and therefor might need to stay out of the yard area for crew safety?  Or does it sound like something might be wrong?  I hate to ban the unit to oblivion as I have about 30 beautiful Atlas Steam area 55 ton hoppers to pull behind this (if it will).  Is there a conventional way to do a reset on the brains?

Thanks,

Troy CBC Bisesi

(Conventional Block Control)

I hope someone will be able to give you an answer Troy, as this is exactly the same way my 2-8-0 acts when starting. 

Mark in Oregon

The FIRST time a TMCC/Legacy locomotive gets powered up with no command signal, it will start in neutral.  If you cycle power, succeeding power up's start out in forward.  This is why a TMCC/Legacy locomotive will suddenly take off at full speed if the command base is disconnected and you cycle power a couple of times.

If you run strictly conventional, the normal behavior of a TMCC/Legacy locomotive is the light to blink a couple of seconds thinking about a command signal, and then it moves out in conventional mode at a speed dependent on the transformer voltage.

That's basically what the manual said; yet each time I go to run this thing, it goes through that same sequence: light flickers, very jerky movement (usually in reverse), I shut down, back to neutral, same jerkiness, neutral, then will often explode into reverse. if I let it run  a short while in reverse, then it will (usually) allow me to then run in forward. Moving the "override" switch under the cab to run in forward only does not always solve the problem. High tech stuff sucks. 

Mark in Oregon

Again, what is the actual product number for the locomotive in question?

I'm sorry if I highjacked "Crazy J RR's" thread: mine is 6-38036....

Mark in Oregon

First:  The product number is 73-8049-200

I tried this on 3 different layouts yesterday.  All 3 have Z4000's.  Put a simple Lionel transformer on it and it runs fine.  Is this another sine wave issue??? Whatever happened to being able to run Lionel with MTH power and electronics.  I have a K-Line tank loco that acts similar.  

Troy

Crazy J RR posted:

First:  The product number is 73-8049-200

I tried this on 3 different layouts yesterday.  All 3 have Z4000's.  Put a simple Lionel transformer on it and it runs fine.  Is this another sine wave issue??? Whatever happened to being able to run Lionel with MTH power and electronics.  I have a K-Line tank loco that acts similar.  

Troy

I'm pretty sure that's the manual part number.  The Lionel number would be a 6-XXXXX number.

You beat me to it Marty.   That number was no help.

Your search - lionel 73-8049-200 - did not match any documents.

I'm gonna guess he has the Lionmaster 6-38049 Norfolk & Western 2-6-6-4 ?

http://www.lionel.com/products...lass-a-1234-6-38049/ 

That is the manual #: 73-8049-250

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/73-8049-250.pdf

Well, that document number is close...

The point here is we shouldn't have to guess.

If it is this locomotive, the Odyssey I speed control might be the issue.  This is one of the units with no switch to turn off the cruise control, and early Odyssey did have some issues.  Note that I'm guessing here as I really don't know if this is the locomotive.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, that document number is close...

The point here is we shouldn't have to guess.

If it is this locomotive, the Odyssey I speed control might be the issue.  This is one of the units with no switch to turn off the cruise control, and early Odyssey did have some issues.  Note that I'm guessing here as I really don't know if this is the locomotive.

John, how many times have we pleaded with folks for the item number?

Typing all those individual Lionel part numbers (and then there are the different manual numbers for a group of products:-) will cause a character miss strike now and again.  Or look at the box 

Do wonder why Lionel does not cross reference the manual numbers per item. They know what went in the box... Hopefully you can help him.

OK guys... the ONLY number on the box is the 73-8049-200.  I've been a model railroader for 50 years and doing O gauge for 32.  I haven't seen one where I cannot identify the actual manufacturing number.  So... again... something new!  Yay!

The guess is correct... it is a Lionmaster N&W 2-6-6-4 class A.  The cab number is (a highly decal like) 1234.  It notes Odyssey on the box.  And, indeed, I see no switch to shut off speed control.  However, the unit ran well under the power of a small Lionel transformer.  All maladies returned under the power of 3 different Z4000's.   Right now, the operation has been scheduled for a TMCCechtomoy but, as we all know, the transplant PS3 brains are not available right now... so I have PLENTY of time to save this if possible.

So, calling all Dr. Fines... I'll take as many 2nd... second opinions as possible.

Thanks again!

Troy

Crazy J RR posted:

OK guys... the ONLY number on the box is the 73-8049-200.  I've been a model railroader for 50 years and doing O gauge for 32.  I haven't seen one where I cannot identify the actual manufacturing number.  So... again... something new!  Yay!

The guess is correct... it is a Lionmaster N&W 2-6-6-4 class A.  The cab number is (a highly decal like) 1234.  It notes Odyssey on the box.  And, indeed, I see no switch to shut off speed control.  However, the unit ran well under the power of a small Lionel transformer.  All maladies returned under the power of 3 different Z4000's.   Right now, the operation has been scheduled for a TMCCechtomoy but, as we all know, the transplant PS3 brains are not available right now... so I have PLENTY of time to save this if possible.

So, calling all Dr. Fines... I'll take as many 2nd... second opinions as possible.

Thanks again!

Troy

Troy, not having one of these I was not aware Lionel doesn't have the item number on the box like other engines! Seems like a huge mistake in policy.

Does anyone know if ALL Lionmaster engines do not have the item number on the box or label?

BobbyD posted:

Crazy J RR posted:

OK guys... the ONLY number on the box is the 73-8049-200.  I've been a model railroader for 50 years and doing O gauge for 32.  I haven't seen one where I cannot identify the actual manufacturing number.  So... again... something new!  Yay!

The guess is correct... it is a Lionmaster N&W 2-6-6-4 class A.  The cab number is (a highly decal like) 1234.  It notes Odyssey on the box.  And, indeed, I see no switch to shut off speed control.  However, the unit ran well under the power of a small Lionel transformer.  All maladies returned under the power of 3 different Z4000's.   Right now, the operation has been scheduled for a TMCCechtomoy but, as we all know, the transplant PS3 brains are not available right now... so I have PLENTY of time to save this if possible.

So, calling all Dr. Fines... I'll take as many 2nd... second opinions as possible.

Thanks again!

Troy

Troy, not having one of these I was not aware Lionel doesn't have the item number on the box like other engines! Seems like a huge mistake in policy.

 

Does anyone know if ALL Lionmaster engines do not have the item number on the box or label?

 

How about on the shipping carton?

MartyE posted:

BobbyD posted:

Crazy J RR posted:

OK guys... the ONLY number on the box is the 73-8049-200.  I've been a model railroader for 50 years and doing O gauge for 32.  I haven't seen one where I cannot identify the actual manufacturing number.  So... again... something new!  Yay!

The guess is correct... it is a Lionmaster N&W 2-6-6-4 class A.  The cab number is (a highly decal like) 1234.  It notes Odyssey on the box.  And, indeed, I see no switch to shut off speed control.  However, the unit ran well under the power of a small Lionel transformer.  All maladies returned under the power of 3 different Z4000's.   Right now, the operation has been scheduled for a TMCCechtomoy but, as we all know, the transplant PS3 brains are not available right now... so I have PLENTY of time to save this if possible.

So, calling all Dr. Fines... I'll take as many 2nd... second opinions as possible.

Thanks again!

Troy

Troy, not having one of these I was not aware Lionel doesn't have the item number on the box like other engines! Seems like a huge mistake in policy.

 

Does anyone know if ALL Lionmaster engines do not have the item number on the box or label?

 

How about on the shipping carton?

That's a good choice Marty, though many engines are sold without the master carton package. 

Like a bank sorting bills into stacks of 100 each but not labeling what the denomination is inside the wrapper?

BobbyD posted:

That's a good choice Marty, though many engines are sold without the master carton package. 

Like a bank sorting bills into stacks of 100 each but not labeling what the denomination is inside the wrapper?

I couldn't tell from the photo but it looked like it was in the shipping box.

I am not sure/don't recall when this locomotive was issued, but I do know that most/some/all? early TMCC locos would behave abysmally under conventional/analog control. This is why for some time after that period Lionel would often add "improved conventional control" to descriptions in their catalogs.

Not sure this is relevant, but there it is. 

TMCC/Legacy Lite is so easy to add, why are you running it in conventional anyway?

Crazy J RR posted:

OK guys... the ONLY number on the box is the 73-8049-200.  I've been a model railroader for 50 years and doing O gauge for 32.  I haven't seen one where I cannot identify the actual manufacturing number.  So... again... something new!  Yay!

I'd look at the box again, I have never seen a Lionel TMCC or Legacy locomotive box without the product number on it.  I did notice a box that had the product number on a different surface than all the description, seemed odd to me, but it was there.

MartyE posted:

BobbyD posted:

That's a good choice Marty, though many engines are sold without the master carton package. 

Like a bank sorting bills into stacks of 100 each but not labeling what the denomination is inside the wrapper?

I couldn't tell from the photo but it looked like it was in the shipping box.

Those are my pictures from a "Google" search. In the box images that showed up I couldn't see a number. Have no idea why it wouldn't be on the end with the features description.

Gunrunner... nope.  The only number is the one I noted and that was on the back of the box.  

 Here is an internet pic of the locomotive and some internet research revealed the following:

Norfolk & Western LionMaster TMCC 2-6-6-4 Class A #1234 SKU: 6-38049

D500... as to why I'm running conventional.  First, this very scenario is one great example of why I am sticking with conventional.  In general, I can step up to the control panel, flip some switches and I'm running trains.  Second, of the 60 or so locomotives I have, most are brass Weaver, Williams, and Sunset.  The cost to upgrade the fleet is prohibitive. 

Troy

I have this locomotive and it's one of my favorites. I have run it in conventional in the past and did not experience any of the issues noted by the original poster. However, I now only run it in command mode as it seems to perform much smoother that way. I suggest trying to find a good, used TMCC set-up to operate your "A". It's easy to install (one wire!) and won't affect conventional operation for your other engines.

This a very impressive model, especially if you add one of GRJ's "Super Chuffer" boards to sync up the smoke unit!

Crazy J RR posted:

Gunrunner... nope.  The only number is the one I noted and that was on the back of the box.  

Well, since you have the box in captivity, I'll have to admit you're right, that is very odd!   I suppose it's like Lionel calling the Vision Line GG-1 a steam engine on the box, stuff happens.

So, just to sum up here...

What's the problem using the Z4000?  Is it just my locomotive or more widespread?  In general, what Lionel set up's should I be weary of?  I have settled on using three Z4000's to run the layout.  Interestingly, I was going to use Z1000's, but I have an MTH premier H10-44 that will not operate on a Z1000.  The Z4000 runs it fine.  Some past posts on OGR revealed a sine wave issue in the Z1000 with that locomotive.  So I solved one problem child locomotive and created another?  If I didn't already have 1000 feet of gargraves and all the ross switches I need, I'd really consider O scale 2 rail.  The electronics seem somewhat more standardized. 

Rick, I wouldn't mind going down that route (adding the one wire TMCC), but at what cost?  Would not a TMCCechtomoy with a PS3 replacement be about the same cost?  Or, better yet, yank it all and put in a Williams reverse unit so the train runs!  For me, the overall railroad and the scenery details that go into it is the fun stuff.  I can let other locomotives make the chuffing and the tooting noises.

Troy 

No. I think you could probably find a good TMCC Camp one unit for a little over a hundred bucks. All you have to do is hook up one wire and you're good to go. It won't affect any of your other trains you could still run conventional if you want. I have this locomotive it is probably one of my best running locomotives I have.

It's a shame to simply gut it...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's a shame to simply gut it...

Indeed...yet I came to the conclusion that my Legacy engine would/could not function on conventional power (as advertised), so I did that very thing. I really hated to do it, but as I mentioned in my thread regarding the smoke unit, it now runs beautifully on straight DC, in either direction, without hesitation or that annoying "shudder" I was always getting before. 

All this means, I guess, is that ultimately you have to do what works best for you...in this case (for me anyway), it was dumping all those electronics and wiring straight track to motor/headlight. 

Mark in Oregon

Troy, I use a Z4000 on my layout and all of my TMCC engines run fine in command mode. No problems with running postwar or non command equipped modern Lionel engines in conventional. I don't run the TMCC stuff in conventional so can't help you there.

I picked up a used Cab1 and Powermaster unit for $20 each at train shows to have a spare set and you can get the manual at the Lionel website.

I would not recommend swapping to PS3 unless you plan to run DCS. There seems to be an issue with operating some PS3 steam engines in conventional mode (search PS3 issues on this forum).  I had one of the PS3 N&W J's that exhibited the "sudden shutdown" problem and ended up selling it to someone who runs the DCS command system.