Lionel Trains / Model Power announcement.

Sounds like a smart strategic move!

Curt

What  better way to get deeper into HO then with with an existing company with a good reputation and product line . I think it is a wise move for Lionel. Maybe down the road they can do that with S gauge and G gauge ....Paul

So for today's history lesson,  some of the old Marx HO and Mantua tooling goes to Lionel. 

Wonder if Lionel still has much of their postwar HO tooling (non-Athearn and non-Rivarossi) including action cars?

If Lionel can make a QUALITY toy HO line on the "low" end and a QUALITY scale/semi-scale HO modeler line then this could be a fun offering.  If it goes Brown Box Tyco then nevermind.

Lionel's HO experience has been colorful with the only consistency being short-lived.

Any word from MRC on this deal? I am under the impression that Model Power had been aquired by MRC when MP was forced to close due to financing issues. I am curious as to whether or not MRC is getting rid of all of the MP products or just HO. Seems to me Lionel is going after the low end of HO market with this move. I don't see them making inroads in this segment when Atlas, Kato, Athearn, MTH and others make products far superior to the MP offerings.

Brian Olson posted

Wonder if Lionel still has much of their postwar HO tooling (non-Athearn and non-Rivarossi) including action cars 

That tooling would be over 60 years old and several locations ago 

I seriously doubt it still exists and if it did, would cost more to refubish than cut new tooling.

Rusty

I think several of the Lionel made HO tooling for a some cars went to Hornby.

I have to admit, this post confuses me because MRC had purchased the defunct Model Power line (including the Mantua tooling) fairly recently and is still listing both brands under its list of manufactured products.

http://www.modelrectifier.com/Articles.asp?ID=252

Model Power acquired the Mantua tooling and name after Mantua went out of business in 2001, then MRC acquired the Model Power and Mantua tooling and names several years after Model Power went out of business in 2014. MRC had even announced it would be featuring an Mantua Classics line. (Brian, this is the line that Mantua reintroduced around 1978 when the Tyler family bought back some of its tooling from Tyco Industries and began manufacturing a protect not associated with Tyco.)

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

https://www.modelrectifier.com...p;show=20&page=1

I never heard of ATI Model Power and can find no reference to this company or the Lionel announcement online outside of this post. Did this firm acquire the Mantua and Model Power tooling from MRC and then quickly turn around and sell it to Lionel? And what about Model Power stock MRC is listing stock for sale right now. There are 25 pages of it.

So, Marty, where did this information come from?

Jim R. posted:

 

 

So, Marty, where did this information come from?

Again from my first post, Lionels website and Facebook page. 

I've been corresponding with Lionel about this subject today. I think one of the things that needs to be clear is this is an acquisition of tooling very similar to what happened with Weaver a few years back. Lionel has not purchased the company or brand. Just the tooling. The bottom line is that Lionel is committed to making a push into HO. This has been repeated to me by multiple people at Lionel and it is a company wide effort. 

Lionel has a chance to make some waves here, especially with their new HO track system which is for the starter set market but could grow into something larger. Let's be happy that Lionel is in the position to make some strategic moves and see what transpires out of this. 

Wonder if Lionel still has much of their postwar HO tooling (non-Athearn and non-Rivarossi) including action cars?

When my buddies and I picked up a bunch of the hand operated arbor presses from the Lionel factory auction, there were a bunch of presses used to assemble H.O. product. Can't say exactly which ones. A member of our group was into HO, so he wound up with them.
That written, they may still have the molds and stamping tools.

MartyE posted:

Jim R. posted:

 

 

So, Marty, where did this information come from?

Again from my first post, Lionels website and Facebook page. 

Now I see it. I didn’t realize it was only under the news tab on the website. Funny that using the keywords lionel, ati, mantua and model power in my Google search didn’t produce an optimized result from either the website or the Facebook page.

The important thing for Lionel to consider is the HO market is far different than the 3-rail O or Flyer market. 

Rusty

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

Jim R., if you look at the various HO categories, like diesel engine or freight cars, you will see "Model Power," but you will also see plenty labeled "Mantua Classics," especially under the freight car category.

These items may not be as precise or detailed as other HO products out there. BUT the prices also seem very reasonable as compared to other HO products. And just as with the 3 rail market, NOT everyone is spending top dollar for high end products. The high end products may get more attention and discussed more frequently, but I think if the truth be known, it's the more budget oriented products that keep a company in business. And as with 3-rail, once people are interested in the hobby, they can work their way up should they so chose. I know several people who have bought HO starter sets for their kids and are quite happy with them, even though they are not up to the same par as many other HO products available as far as fine detail and prototypical fidelity.

I think this products would fit in very well for a HO Lionel starter set. And with Lionel's embracing of Bluetooth technology for 3-rail products, it's an easy cross over to HO utilizing some of the same technology.

As Howard Hitchcock said in the Notch6 interview, Lionel sold a quarter of a million large scale battery operated train sets. Those may not get drooled over on this forum, but that sales number is important for Lionel. And my thought: I highly doubt the entire yearly production of Lionel's high end scale product line equals a quarter million. But that said, it's the technology that was introduced in the high end products, that has now worked its way down to Lionel starter products in the form of LionChief and LionChief Plus.

Jerry Calabrese once said that Lionel could ill-afford to ignore anyone particular product line. And I think that still holds true today. It is interesting that MRC, having recently purchased the tooling themselves, should decide to sell it. But maybe it doesn't fit in with their overall scheme, just as the Industrial Rail products no longer seem to be in line where Atlas has gone with their products.

Notch 6 posted:

I've been corresponding with Lionel about this subject today. I think one of the things that needs to be clear is this is an acquisition of tooling very similar to what happened with Weaver a few years back. Lionel has not purchased the company or brand. Just the tooling. The bottom line is that Lionel is committed to making a push into HO. This has been repeated to me by multiple people at Lionel and it is a company wide effort. 

Lionel has a chance to make some waves here, especially with their new HO track system which is for the starter set market but could grow into something larger. Let's be happy that Lionel is in the position to make some strategic moves and see what transpires out of this. 

That clarifies things tremendously. So it sounds like MRC sold off some tooling that it had no interest in using to another company, and that company sold it to Lionel.

I know the Mantua tooling originated in New Jersey, mostly in the 1960s and 1970s before Consolidated Foods bought Mantua Metal Products and created Tyco Industries (which still used the American production facility until the Tyler family bought back the factory and the original Mantua American tooling in 1977).

OK, from this point on, I’m speculating. Since the Mantua product is clearly missing from the product list on MRC’s website, and since that tooling is American, not Chinese, I’m guessing what Lionel has done is acquire tooling that it can produce outside of China, like it has with the Weaver line.

So Derek, any word along that line from Lionel? I know there was a recent reference about Lionel expanding its American production facilities, specifically in North Carolina.

By the way, that Mantua tooling is very old, though some of it was refurbished so that Mantua could continue to use it from 1978 to 2001. If all of the old Mantua locomotive tooling transferred in the sale to ATI, then it would include the straight-boiler Mikado, the tapered-boiler Pacific, the 0-4-0 saddle tank switcher (once known as the Booster), the 0-4-0 and tender switcher (once known as the Shifter) and the 4-4-2 modeled specifically from the historic General in Kenessaw, Georgia.

The key in the announcement is ATI/Model Power, ATI Model Products dba Model Power is based in Farmingdale NY. Doing a search looks like they import/sell more than just trains.

Doug

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

Jim R., if you look at the various HO categories, like diesel engine or freight cars, you will see "Model Power," but you will also see plenty labeled "Mantua Classics."

These items may not be as precise or detailed as other HO products out there. BUT the prices also seem very reasonable as compared to other HO products. And just as with the 3 rail market, NOT everyone is spending top dollar for high end products. The high end products may get more attention and discussed more frequently, but I think if the truth be known, it's the more budget oriented products that keep a company in business. And as with 3-rail, once people are interested in the hobby, they can work their way up should they so chose. I know several people who have bought HO starter sets for their kids and are quite happy with them, even though they are not up to the same par as many other HO products available as far as fine detail and prototypical fidelity.

I think this products would fit in very well for a HO Lionel starter set. And with Lionel's embracing of Bluetooth technology for 3-rail products, it's an easy cross over to HO utilizing some of the same technology.

As Howard Hitchcock said in the Notch5 interview, Lionel sold a quarter of a million large scale battery operated train sets. Those may not get drooled over on this forum, but that sales number is important for Lionel. And my though: I highly doubt the entire yearly production of Lionel's high end scale product line equals a quarter million. But that said, it's the technology that was introduced in the high end products, that has now worked its way down to Lionel starter products in the form of LionChief and LionChief Plus.

Jerry Calabrese once said that Lionel could ill-afford to ignore anyone particular product line. And I think that still holds true today. It is interesting that MRC, having recently purchased the tooling themselves, should decide to sell it. But maybe it doesn't fit in with their overall scheme, just as the Industrial Rail products no longer seem to be in line where Atlas has gone with their products.

Assuming Mantua Classics are part of the deal, the Pacific's were retailing out for $209.95 and Mantua diesels for 84.95.  (DCC Ready)  Add about 70 bucks for DCC w/Sound.

I wouldn't expect the prices to be lower under Lionel's branding.

Rusty

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

Jim R., if you look at the various HO categories, like diesel engine or freight cars, you will see "Model Power," but you will also see plenty labeled "Mantua Classics," especially under the freight car category.

I checked all 25 pages. None included any of Mantua’s classic steamers or diesels, just the Model Power ones that originated in Hong Kong.

Be interesting to see whether they offer these locos with DCC or Bluetooth or both.  Bluetooth means the consumer gets command control with no need to spring for $200 plus in DCC equipment.  That's not been possible in HO previously.  My guess is they offer Bluetooth with DCC ready so those with DCC can use it easily and those without can get a taste of command control with no additional expense above a DC conventional loco.

Landsteiner posted:

Be interesting to see whether they offer these locos with DCC or Bluetooth or both.  Bluetooth means the consumer gets command control with no need to spring for $200 plus in DCC equipment.  That's not been possible in HO previously.  My guess is they offer Bluetooth with DCC ready so those with DCC can use it easily and those without can get a taste of command control with no additional expense above a DC conventional loco.

I don't have any details of this aspect of it, so this comment is completely from a hobbyist stand point, but that could also be a BIG win if they can cram that all under the hood. We know it can be done to a degree as Polar HO proved, but can it be done with a locomotive with a smaller footprint? We shall see... 

As a long standing Lionel fan, I wish them nothing but success with their HO line. Anything that helps the company and the hobby is fine with me. Lionel is responsible for my one and only venture to the dark side...

I’ve got two of these... never ran, never even owned any HO track, but it was just such cool Bicentennial souvenir at the time. Maybe Lionel will make a set of cars to go with the engine   

I’ve got two of these... never ran, never even owned any HO track, but it was just such cool Bicentennial souvenir at the time. Maybe Lionel will make a set of cars to go with the engine   


That engine was made in three paint schemes. I had all three, in mint condition. At my son's request, we got out the Bicentenial one to run. Ours was a lemon, sold off the other two. My suggestion: keep it as a collectors item.
I think the paint schemes were Norfolk and Western, Southern Pacific, and Bicentennial (Freedom Train).
I thought they made passenger cars for the Freedom Train. I did not have them. I did have some 1970's freight cars. IMHO, they weren't as nice as Atlas or Athearn cars.

ATI- is American Tortoise International. Model Power WAS at 180 Smith St. in Farmingdale for years.   Several years ago I bought out all their existing inventory in O scale figures, Houses, wire and lighting kits plus all their N scale steamers. The Tagers were shopping around the tooling back then. They made a deal with MRC to bring in new product but as far as I know, they did not buy any tooling. So Lionel made a deal and now own Mantua. 

Jim R. posted:

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

Jim R., if you look at the various HO categories, like diesel engine or freight cars, you will see "Model Power," but you will also see plenty labeled "Mantua Classics," especially under the freight car category.

I checked all 25 pages. None included any of Mantua’s classic steamers or diesels, just the Model Power ones that originated in Hong Kong.

The Mantua Classics GP20's can be found here:

http://www.modelrectifier.com/...p;show=30&page=1

One Mantua Classic Pacific can be found here:

http://www.modelrectifier.com/...p;show=20&page=1

Seems the 2-6-6-2's are gone.

Rusty

Apples55 posted:

As a long standing Lionel fan, I wish them nothing but success with their HO line. Anything that helps the company and the hobby is fine with me. Lionel is responsible for my one and only venture to the dark side...

I’ve got two of these... never ran, never even owned any HO track, but it was just such cool Bicentennial souvenir at the time. Maybe Lionel will make a set of cars to go with the engine   

I did the same thing, and I've never run mine, either.  As C.W. Burfle suggests, I keep mine as a collector's item.

As for the Lionel HO announcement, I'm a bit conflicted.  Yes, it's nice to see that Lionel is in a position to expand.  But when I look at how hesitant they seem to be about expanding and refining their existing Flyer S-scale line, I'm inclined to wonder if Lionel is only going to repeat past HO mistakes.

Rusty Traque posted:

Jim R. posted:

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

But I just looked on MRC’s website and saw no sign of any former Mantua tooling in its product pages, only the Model Power N and HO products. But I did find plenty of Model Power.

Jim R., if you look at the various HO categories, like diesel engine or freight cars, you will see "Model Power," but you will also see plenty labeled "Mantua Classics," especially under the freight car category.

I checked all 25 pages. None included any of Mantua’s classic steamers or diesels, just the Model Power ones that originated in Hong Kong.

The Mantua Classics GP20's can be found here:

http://www.modelrectifier.com/...p;show=30&page=1

One Mantua Classic Pacific can be found here:

http://www.modelrectifier.com/...p;show=20&page=1

Seems the 2-6-6-2's are gone.

Rusty

I just tried a different search specifically for Mantua Classics on MRC’s website and found the GP20 units, but no in-stock Mantua steamers whatsoever — though it looks like MRC had some for a while. And none of the other classic tooling I mentioned (the straight-boiler Mikado and the General especially). Maybe that tooling is gone. 

Charlie Nassau offered an additional perspective above. It doesn’t look like MRC is dedicated or maybe even involved with some or all of the existing Model Power or Mantua tooling anymore.

I guess we’ll know more when the ATI/Lionel deal closes and Lionel elaborates on its plans.

By the way, thanks for posting this, Marty. A pretty major announcement. I’m surprised Lionel didn’t include such a major announcement in their carousel promos at the top of the home page already.

Jim R. posted:

By the way, thanks for posting this, Marty. A pretty major announcement. I’m surprised Lionel didn’t include such a major announcement in their carousel promos at the top of the home page already.

No problem.  I posted it as soon as I saw it on Facebook.  For a company that many are singing their demise, they sure look like they are planning a future.

It all depends on what quality and pricepoint level Lionel is considering. The serious HO people I know are into Atlas, Kadee, Kato and others, which are generally high-quality lines. Kato's track is also hard to beat, though not inexpensive.

MartyE posted:

Jim R. posted:

By the way, thanks for posting this, Marty. A pretty major announcement. I’m surprised Lionel didn’t include such a major announcement in their carousel promos at the top of the home page already.

No problem.  I posted it as soon as I saw it on Facebook.  For a company that many are singing their demise, they sure look like they are panning a future.

Marty;

I certainly hope Lionel isn’t “panning a future”  Sorry... couldn’t resist.

Very interesting move.  If they have the tools but not the name, these trains will hit the market in Lionel boxes.  Long-time MRRs will recognize the heritage, but much of the buying public will not.  If they can compete price-wise with, say, the general run of Bachmann HO--or even upgrade to the Spectrum level--they have a good chance of finally becoming a player in the HO market.

Even in HO, not all the buying is done by the hyper-vigilant.  Good quality starter sets--not, as someone noted above, Consolidated Food-level TYCO, but good, old Mantua quality--should enjoy success.  Little Jimmy still receives train sets from some (grand)parents.  The name may have some power here, and the (likely) lower price/pain point might draw attention.

At one time, Model Power was about the cheapest, crappiest HO around--made CF/Brown Box-era TYCO look good.  But the company reinvented itself well. 

Thing is, Lionel is going to have to take this effort seriously.  Just having the tooling isn't enough.  Initial offering selection, manufacturing expertise, quality control, and marketing will all play a role.  And the current Lionel is not exactly known for its acumen in some of these areas. 

Further, it wold be a shame--but perhaops inevitable--that this effort will cool off their momentum in O.  Or maybe not a shame if it allows them to catch up with past promises yet unfulfilled.

Dunno.  This acquisition may be a great opportunity here.  I hope they don't fumble it.

Maybe Lionel has decided to expand into ALL segments but of model trains only- including HO at various price levels,  battery-operated trains, etc., and move away from "other" toy lines, like the Nascar collectibles,  and Mega-Tracks.  Historically, every time Lionel has tried to add to their core model train business and become a broad line toy company, they have failed for one reason or another.  

We have to remember that dollars spent in HO are WAY more than O-Gauge or O-Scale.  Expanding into HO sounds like a good move to me!! 

Maybe Lionel sees a brighter future:  every time a kid comes to see my modest layout there are a couple of common themes: 

(a) they have a history and love of "Thomas" and the TV show.(b) they are blown away by the trains the sounds, the remotes (LionChief Plus) and the realistic scenery. 

Some call MY trains "the real ones", indicating that they see Thomas  as what they are- toys.   Maybe those shows and toys will bring the future model train whackos like us!!  

Geez I hope they don't get all the tooling, hobbytown of Boston still owns a set of former Mantua A & B Shark unit dies.  ATI can't locate it, but it's either in NJ or NY...and a chance it was moved to Fall River Mass. by the former owner of hobbytown many years ago. 

Time for a road trip to Fall River.

Nick

Looking at the Dark Side, is one side effect of this - putting the Lionel name on H.O. products - going to draw more young people (and parents) away from O gauge? Also, this acquision is perhaps another sign that there's a limit to the number of customers out there who can afford high-priced modern O gauge equipment. This limited market leaves little room for significant growth; to do that requires expansion into different areas. Wages continue to be stagnant, the middle class is increasingly squeezed, therefore less expensive trains are a  requirement for a train manufacturer to grow.

My dads LIONEL HO Santa Fe passenger set that was set up every year under our Christmas tree was what got me interested in toy trains. Here I am 48 years later and up to my eyeballs with Lionel - both traditional, classic whatever it’s called now and Standard O/scale pieces. And yes, sorry to say I had one of those CF Foods/brown box Tyco sets in the 70s. Spirit of 76 set. 20 years later and seeing a demo of TMCC/Railsounds I was hooked. Point is there’s merit to Lionel’s jump into HO. I’d love to see them resurrect the old packaging from the 60s 

Good move by Lionel. Probably very unlikely, but an HO Scale Legacy line would be amazing.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Good move by Lionel. Probably very unlikely, but an HO Scale Legacy line would be amazing.

That would be a terrible idea.  Lionel needs to keep these DCC and Bluetooth at the most.  The HO guys don't want another control system and quite frankly I doubt Lionel wants to deal with Legacy in these small footprints without little to no value.

This announcement was to coincide with the NMRA show in Kansas. 

Historically, every time Lionel has tried to add to their core model train business and become a broad line toy company, they have failed for one reason or another.  

I wish Lionel well. Their previous attempts to penetrate the HO market didn't go well either.

Re:  Marty:  Agreed.