Lionel Tug-of-War accessory - PC board problem?

First, don't check voltage using ohms/continuity.

Put the meter in low AC volt mode. Connect the accessory wires to the clips with 12-14 volts AC. Power on the transformer. Check for AC voltage on the solder dots on the back of the board Blue wires.

Next, put the meter in DC volt mode, low range and check for DC voltage on the back of the board solder dots (red & black wires)

If you have AC in and DC out of the board it is ok.

I would then check for mechanical jam of the gears or mechanism.

The one photo of with the red and black wires looks a little weird, like they are touching or melted or something is on them. Confirm that they are good.

You may have to remove the motor to confirm that voltage is getting there and test the motor free running.

All of the parts except the people are available.

I would suspect more of mechanical jam than an electric component failure from storage time. But, who knows.

Carl, thank you so much! I'll try what you outlined.

Cheers!

Keith

Moonman posted:

First, don't check voltage using ohms/continuity.

Put the meter in low AC volt mode. Connect the accessory wires to the clips with 12-14 volts AC. Power on the transformer. Check for AC voltage on the solder dots on the back of the board Blue wires.

Next, put the meter in DC volt mode, low range and check for DC voltage on the back of the board solder dots (red & black wires)

If you have AC in and DC out of the board it is ok.

I would then check for mechanical jam of the gears or mechanism.

The one photo of with the red and black wires looks a little weird, like they are touching or melted or something is on them. Confirm that they are good.

You may have to remove the motor to confirm that voltage is getting there and test the motor free running.

All of the parts except the people are available.

I would suspect more of mechanical jam than an electric component failure from storage time. But, who knows.

There's good news and bad news...

The good news is that Carl has a really good eye. The AC into the board was good. The DC out of the board was not good. However, even with my blurry photo, Carl thought that the connections of the red and black wires for DC out of the board looked suspicious. I cut a slight gap between the two solder joints, and voila, the DC out of the board tested good.

The bad news is that the accessory is still 100% dead. I believe that in my previous fumbling testing, not knowing what I was doing but doing it anyhow, I fried one or more components on the board. When I leave power on to the accessory, something on the board is cooking. Even more bad news is that the board is unavailable from Lionel.

I'm wondering, if I could find someone who knows their way around PC boards, would they be able to identify and replace the bad components on the board?

Cheers!

Keith

Try turning one of the gears to see if the unit is free to spin.

Rod Miller

Keith,

What voltage DC is the board outputting? It should be 5 volts. But, it may be higher, just curious.

Now you have to remove the three screws that mount the motor and test the motor and test the gears that move the tug of war with the motor out for a jam.

Lionel does have a fix with an alternate regulator board.(691REG5B01) Note the substitute number next to the part description from the other link.

But, if you are getting DC voltage out it's a motor or gear issue, which I would suspect a gear jam from handling and not the board.

Try the power on with the motor out (still connected) and observe if it spins when free. If the gears are jammed and the motor cannot spin, the regulator will get hot as well as the motor. It gets hot anyway, converting the AC to DC.

After seeing Rod's suggestion, I did test for a jam in the gears by removing the shaft (the white box) that transfers power from the motor shaft to the gears. With no load on the motor shaft, there is still absolutely no sign of life.

Carl, I don't remember what the DC output is. I'll check it again when I can get back to the train room. Also, thanks for finding the alternate board, in case I need it. I saw the substitute number, but for some reason I was unable to find the part on Lionel's site.

Cheers!

Keith

Cool. Check the output again. Sounding more like motor.

The DC output from the board is about 9 volts. If it's too high, perhaps that's because of damage to the board.

With the motor out:

--the motor seems to run fine

--the gears and cam plate work freely

With the motor in, there's not the slightest indication of the motor shaft turning.

I'm baffled...

Keith

No, there's a 9 volt configuration in the replacement board link I believe. That's a good voltage. Now you know what to use if it goes bad. The 9 volt configuration.

Anyway, so we have the motor getting DC voltage and running fine when not connected to the drive gears.

The drive gears are not jammed and turn freely when the motor is out.

Conclusion. The gear on the motor is slipping. This happens from wear or cracking.

Examine the gear close for a crack between the splines(teeth). Give it a tug to see if it will come off.

The humming that you heard earlier was most likely the motor shaft spinning and the gear not turning.

You can get a new motor with the gear or track down the gear. Count the teeth on it. It may be the same gear size used on the Nuclear Reactor that some one made (S & W)and others found on eBay.

You can try some of the thick type of slow drying glue super glue for a quick fix attempt, especially if the gear will slide off.

Sorry to drag you through the whole process. It's one of those things if I was there I may have recognized. I have had a few accessories lose a gear to learn to look for it when I hear it. I was addressing your concerns about heat and such to check everything.

Sorry, is it this piece that's attached to the motor, it's available from Lionel. original item parts list #7

Carl, thank you. I'll examine the worm on the motor shaft and see if it's slipping. It engages with the white gear in the picture you posted.--Keith

Keith Levine posted:

Carl, thank you. I'll examine the worm on the motor shaft and see if it's slipping. It engages with the white gear in the picture you posted.--Keith

 

It's one of those gears or that assembly. let me know.

In this photo:

is the tooth on the gear in the block, flat or damaged?  To me it looks like it is not right.  You may need to clean that up, it could be causing a jam.

Gene Anstine

Moonman posted:

No, there's a 9 volt configuration in the replacement board link I believe. That's a good voltage. Now you know what to use if it goes bad. The 9 volt configuration.

Anyway, so we have the motor getting DC voltage and running fine when not connected to the drive gears.

The drive gears are not jammed and turn freely when the motor is out.

 

I had this same thing happened to me with the operating lumberjacks from Lionel.  I thought it was the gears but everytime I checked it out everything was good.  It would work for a bit then stop.  I replaced the DC motor and now it runs like a clock.  Hope this helps.  This is the DC motor I replaced.

More than likely bad motor or jammed or broken gears as mentioned. That PCB is just a simple Voltage regulator circuit taking AC input, rectifying with diodes and regulating 9VDC out.  You could remove it an use a 9V battery.  G 

I sort of feel like an idiot because I've been fumbling around with this thing so much--but, somehow, I have it working now.

There are two ways I can make it work:

1) I can use DC directly to the motor. To do this, I have to use my MRC DC transformer (from my HO days in the late 1960s); a 9-volt battery doesn't do it (not enough amperage?).

2) The other way is to apply AC power to the PC board at the following two places:

--the spot where the right of the two blue wires is attached; and

--the spot just to the left of where the red wire is attached.

Perhaps if you look at the top of the board, you can figure out why connecting AC power to these two places makes it work.

I would rather not have to devote a nice DC transformer to just one accessory. To use AC power, I would need a lead wire soldered to the spot on the board just to the left of the red wire (in the top photo).

However, I confess that this is beyond my capabilities. Is anyone in the Chicago area who could do this for me?

Thank you all for your help.

Merry Christmas!

Happy Hanukkah!

Keith