Lionel's "new" Southern Crescent Limited

Nice as it gets Jeff!

 

ps: the "headlight hood" was called a "Fingernail Visor" by Spencer and Pegram Shops.

I thought this a neat comparison of the whistles.  Please forgive that this was shot with an iPhone.  Southern #1408 is a renumbered #1403.

 

JeffT:

 

Thanks for posting the video comparing the whistles!

 

Neal Jeter

To me the Lionel Southern 1403 sounds like it have the correct note for having a 3 Chime Southern longbell whistle. The picth on Southern 1393 is a little on the high side and should be lower but the note sounds correct. 1396 might be the right notes but due to it being an older version of railsounds 5 the sound quailty is off so it's really hard to tell.

S.R. Sean,

 

Thanks for posting that video showing the comparison of whistles between these engines.  Now the 1393 is the recent Legacy offering.  When were the other 2 models offered and could you please describe the differences, if any, between all of these models?

 

Steve

Steve

Jeft posted the video but I have Southern 1396 and Southern 1403 in my collection.
The big different between the two is appearance and sounds. Southern 1396 is lettered for the Southern Crescent Limited and the drivers and pilot wheels are painted green the drivers on 1403 are painted black. The pilot on 1396 is painted green while the one 1402 is painted black. 1396 also has 2 chuff per revolution and railsounds 5.0 while 1403 has 4 chuff per revolution railsounds 5.0 and has a bell and whistle cord. 1403 also sports a Walschaert Valve Gear and brakeman stand on the tender. As for 1393 I can only go by the photo's that where posted here on the fourm.

S.R. Sean,

 

Thanks for this additional information on these models.

 

This is truly an informative thread on Southern Railway steam; thanks to all who have contributed.

 

Steve

Jeft,

By the way good job in Spencerfying your Ps4!

Thanks Sean!

 

Neal, maybe one day I can make it over to run these Ps-4's on your layout.

I will be at the TCA National Convention Friday and Saturday June29th and 30th.  Will any of you "Southern" fans be there?  JeffT give me a call sometime about running those Ps-4s on the layout.

 

Neal Jeter

 

Got this in today, it's a recoding of the sounds of 1401. And it proves once and for all that since 1401 has been in the Smithsonian, it has had a white stripe on the pilot. It's not a reflection, it is most definitely a white stripe!

Hard to believe this is still floating around!  The 1401 as delivered and initially displayed in the Smithsonian did not have the white stripe (see photo). That was added sometime later by the museum. The Southern gave the engine a full external restoration, including painting (without the stripe), in Oct.-Nov. 1961 before it left for the Smithsonian. It was moved to the museum in late Nov. 1961 into a yet uncompleted addition, and the building was completed around the engine. This new part of the museum was opened to the public in 1964. The stripe was added at an unknown time subsequent to that.

 

In any case, it can probably be said that whether it's there, and when it got there, makes little difference to the world.  

One thing that seems indisputable - the white stripe really changes the esthetics of the loco.  It is a brilliant accent concept as to appearance - whoever and whever it was added.  In particular since it matches in color and width the trim on the wheels it works at several levels to add nicely to the overall look.

 

I "removed" it, crudely I admit, in the photo below. Still a nice looking train, but not nearly as nice, in my opinion.  Whoever decided to add it had a good eye for esthetics.

I'm really suprised that Lionel nor MTH has done a model of the Southern Tennessean.

The Tennessean not only ran on the Southern it also ran over the N&W with the J.

So for me I was both honored and blessed to have acuire a Weaver Ps4 from fellow forum member Dewey Trogdon. I plan to have my Ps-4 returned to Weaver for a TMCC and smoke unit upgrade in the spring.

Sean

I now have two Ps-4 "Tennesseans" [again], one conventional and my original one with T/A's TMCC/RS4.0 installation.

Not too long ago I paid $950 plus packing,shipping and insurance for the conventional unit to a former East Tennessean and N&W fan who is even older than me and was vacating O-gauge and HO.

He is now in the Chicago area but we model railroaded together back in the late 1980s early 1990s when I was living in the Mountains near the Tennessee line and he was at the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport. 

I bet you say that to all the Pacifics.

 

Ah, Brian, this Pacific is in a class by herself.

Temporary esthetics, anyway. A white stripe in that location probably would be black after a month of road duty.  

Yeah - in fact the whole locomotive would look pretty dirty after what? Just a day of running, probably.  

 

But it sure looks good in a museum, I'll grant you that . . .

Here are some images of the 1401 being placed into the Smithsonian building. The pilot was removed for the move, but the color view from the 60s/70s definitely shows the white stripe.

Is there any information to prove that 1401 can be return back to service if and I do mean IF NS wanted to run her again? I thought the Southern only did a Cosmetic Restoration but internally she's a wreck.

Hey Dewey,

Just couldn't live without have two Tennesseans.

I'm thinking about getting the new Lionel Ps-4 but I know the 1st think I will do is paint that roof flat black!

I don't think it is a question of whether NS wants to run the locomotive, but if the Smithsonian would even allow it. I think you are right, though, that the 1401 was cosmetically restored by the Southern, but did not even worry about the condition of the boiler or firebox (and why would they?) 

 

Even if the 1401 was restored mechanically as well in 1961, over 40 years of sitting and the greater restrictions by the FRA on steam locomotive operation, would cause NS to spend close to $1,000,000 to return this back to service. Now, if they wanted something close to a Ps-4, then NS could try to obtain the A&WP 290 which pulled the Crescent back in the 40s and operate across the system.

 

Personally, I hope they restore the 611 if they want heavy mainline steam in the future. 

I don't remember now the exact details of the transaction involving the transfer of 1401 from the Southern to the Smithsonian (and don't have time to research it again), but I think I recall it involved Graham Claytor's efforts (wish he were still around). The 1401 was still fully operational, I believe, at the time the process began for the transfer. I don't believe the Southern (now NS, of course) retained any rights of ownership in the engine (railroads sometimes do), and am quite sure the Smithsonian is the full owner. 

 

Regardless, the 1401 is encased in the Smithsonian now, with the building being built around her after the engine was transported there. And there are, of course, no rail lines going to the Smithsonian. So it will never run on the rails again, no matter what. It's like the U-505 submarine in Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry, which will never float in the water again.

 

It's at least somewhat conceivable that under some miraculous circumstances 611 would take to the rails again. As Larry notes, that's what we should hope for.   

With enough money, anything is possible.

And in my personal opinion, if any engine should be restored, it's NC&St.L 576. Sitting in Centennial Park in Nashville, wasting away.

I believe the issue with 611 is that she was at the end of her flute time in 1994 when the Steam Program was canceled. I also heard that NS would allow the engine to operate on NS Rails but they will not put any money to the restoration or operations for 611. Another point have the FRA rule to steam locomotive changed since the last time 611 was running? Plus is 611 still own by the City of Roanoke?I know that an ultrasound inspection would be needed on the boiler and the same would apply to 1401. As for A&WP 290 I know that Graham Claytor tried to get her for the Southern Steam Program I'm not sure if the Southeastern Railway Museum wanted to part with her. I know many people like myself miss the day's of mainline steam on NS and the 21st Century Steam Program is a nice start just don't know how long NS plans on running the program. But some steam is better than no steam.

I believe I read that the FRA-mandated times for steam engine maintenance haven't changed at all since the heyday of steam - still the same requirements. The Milwaukee S-3 just completed her required maintenance and recertification, which took that organization 4 years to get done. Obviously a railroad could do it more quickly, but even the UP takes several years to get periodic maintenance done, which is why they alternate their two operational steamers. It has a lot to do with budget constraints as well, and parts availability, etc.

 

With respect to the Milwaukee S-3, its 15-year FRA boiler safety certification had expired, and therefore required re-certification. What this process entails, among other things, is the removal of all boiler lagging, the cab, and all of the flues inside the boiler. Thereafter, the interior is sandblasted, flues checked and replaced, and the whole boiler is sonar scanned for thickness of steel. Big job, and expensive. As Sean notes, that's probably what the J needs done as well.

 

The new NS steam program is a nice step, as you say, Sean. Smaller engines are used, which are considerably cheaper to maintain than big ones like the J. Hope it lasts, too, but I'm sure it depends on how the public relations value is measured by the NS.

I think it's fair to say that almost EVERY steam locomotive was fully operational right up until it was parked somewhere and allowed to rot.    (Not that the 1401 has been "rotting" in a climate controlled tomb.)

Depends on the definition of "fully operational," I suppose.  Before being sent on their final trip to for display somewhere, many times steam engines were not in operational condition. They had been stored various places, sometimes for decades, with parts rusted and removed, running gear cut, etc. In most cases running gear had been cut or removed to allow them to be towed to wherever they were sitting. There were instances were some had been sitting somewhere in use as stationary boilers for different purposes. There was at least one I heard of which was found sitting in some woods.

 

The 1401 was an unusual situation, in that it was relatively freshly shopped and off active operations when it was selected for preservation and donation to the Smithsonian, and then was carefully stored from that time until it was delivered to the Smithsonian. Here's the story (the Regent mentioned was Graham Claytor) :

 

 "1401 ended its days hauling local trains. It was last 'shopped' (fully repaired) at Spencer Shops in 1951.

The locomotive was retired from service in 1952. A Regent of the Smithsonian, who was also on the board of directors of the Southern Railway, headquartered in Washington, D.C., persuaded the Regents to accept the 1401 in 1953 as a gift from the Southern - to represent the 'age of steam railways' in American history.

From 1953 to 1961, the 1401 was stored at Alexandria, Va. When the new National Museum of History & Technology (now NMAH - under construction from 1959) was ready, the Southern gave the 1401 and its tender a full external restoration, with new paint and striping, in October-November 1961.

Two 250-ton-capacity railway steam cranes of the Southern lifted 1401 from a rail spur located about two miles from downtown, where 1401 had been moved. The two cranes set the engine (sans tender) on a special, 200-ton-capacity, multi-tire trailer. Late on the night of Nov 25/early on the morning of Nov 26, 1961, the engine and its tender were moved (part of the way on Constitution Ave.) to their new home in Washington.

Another eleven days were required to place the engine and tender in the museum. The east end of the new museum was completed around the installed 1401. In January 1964, the museum opened to the public."

So it is possible that 1401 could operate again.

I know she was stored outside of D.C. until the museum was ready for delievery.

Just didn't know that she was shopped to full repair before being stored.

Which brings up another question. If the Southern did all this work to a locomotive they knew that was going on display did someone think that maybe in the future they would remove the locomotive for limited operations?

ANY steam locomotive can be made operational! All it takes is a tremendous amount of money, a facility to do the overhaul/rebuild, and an experienced knowledgable crew to accomplish the job. 

 

That said, will the 1401 run again? No! Simply because the building was built around 1401, and would essentially have to be dismantled/destroyed in order to get 1401 to a rail head.

Re-read the information from the story I posted above, and you'll see that it wasn't retired from operation for a year after being shopped. And it was another year after that before arrangements were made to gift it to the Smithsonian. So there was no thought whatsoever by the Southern to shop it in order to make it ready for future operation after going to the Smithsonian.

 

Hot Water is totally correct in his statement that the 1401 will never run again. That's a daydream of the first order. It's encased in a museum in a building that was built around her, miles from the nearest railroad. Never mind the untold millions of dollars it would take, the Smithsonian would never consider tearing the building down and letting the engine be hauled out of the museum.

Well I mean technically, with enough money anything is possible.