Looking for advice as I consider a new layout...

I was going to write that all the track colors are dark and I had a hard time telling one from another.  I have been using Duck Duck Go browser, so finally opened it in Chrome.  Now I see the colors better.  All I can say is that the plan looks quite ambitious, but certainly doable.  I'm glad Ken is really on top of things giving ideas.

@Ken Wing posted:

Yard at upper right looks good, but you'll need room without track for roads and on the ground container storage.

I'm wondering how wide the aisle is at the corner of the blue walls. Will you be able to get into that lower left space?

Good news is the wall are not there yet....have not built the building....so i have some flexibility....but they did move on me....my one complaint it seems objects  move on me when I don't want them to.

yes i agree i think I need a larger space for the container yard to get roads building etc.

As I study this more I don't like how the blue and green main lines are going up and down...your going up or down on a good portion of the run.

A figure 8 requires either grades or a grade crossing. To avoid both, you would need to flip the loop around the passenger yard so the mainline becomes just a double-track loop.

Personally, I think modest grades add visual and operating interest--more three dimensional scenery versus a tabletop look, and make an engineer operate the locomotive instead of just putting the controls on autopilot.

If grades are too steep, they don't look realistic and limit train length. Spreading the grade over the whole main line minimizes the steepness. When building, you must avoid vertical kinks at the top and bottom of the grade. The top and bottom of grades are poor places for track switches. Spur tracks coming off grades can be challenging because the spur needs to be close to level so the cars don't roll.

The figure 8 requires a grade separation of about six inches. Going to the double-track loop would let you have gentler grades.

@Ken Wing posted:

A figure 8 requires either grades or a grade crossing. To avoid both, you would need to flip the loop around the passenger yard so the mainline becomes just a double-track loop.

Agree,  I am looking at both options....I think you lose some of the visual appeal if you just flip the loop which I am not sure I want to do either

Personally, I think modest grades add visual and operating interest--more three dimensional scenery versus a tabletop look, and make an engineer operate the locomotive instead of just putting the controls on autopilot.

No doubt I want grades - but I am in a situation where I got to get up and stay up til I am coming down..I think i am at about 2% grades or less but certainly there is no pause you are going up or you are going  down.  

If grades are too steep, they don't look realistic and limit train length. Spreading the grade over the whole main line minimizes the steepness. When building, you must avoid vertical kinks at the top and bottom of the grade. The top and bottom of grades are poor places for track switches. Spur tracks coming off grades can be challenging because the spur needs to be close to level so the cars don't roll.

Not sure what the current grade i have on my layout...i built it do long ago. Gong to figure that out and test to see just what I can pull up that grade....again thinking about the lionel 21" passenger cars....I think my current grade is close to 2+%

The figure 8 requires a grade separation of about six inches. Going to the double-track loop would let you have gentler grades.

Right now on my current layout  I have basically a hidden grade....once you get up, you can run  the train on the upper level up and then when you are down you are running on the lower level  The grade is more of a connection between the 2 levels not really part of the layout.  

In this particular drawing once you come around the passenger yard and descend to back under the main - go though the double crossover you start ascending up again.....that is my real issue.....is just seems a short time on the lower level before you start ascending up again.

Maybe that is no big deal...maybe I am overthinking it.

One idea would be to move the mainline crossing up toward the upper left corner. This would make the two parts of the figure 8 more equal in length, giving you more distance on the lower level.

So, I still have to clear the "right turn" the blue and green lines make and the passenger yard before I can go descend....However, your earlier point was a good one about using a good portion of the main to increase.....getting up to 6 inches where the "duck under" is - is an artificial obstacle...what if I get to 3 inches cross the aisle and start a gradual ascent again.....i can have the freight yard 3 inches below the main level - so where the gold line comes under it will be a 6" and will have it will then be able in rise another 3 inches to the main level.....not sure if that make sense.

Maybe its time to rethink the track plan and try a different configuration. Since this will be a new structure, why the corner closet constraints? My dream would be to have a walk in layout. No duck unders, no lift off, no lift ups, no swing gates.  How about an "E" shape design , lobes on the ends would provide long runs and allow multiple scenery changes. Plus a water level route and upper tracks. Just a thought.

your thinking something like this....

Or maybe even a "G"  seems to me you could get another lobe or at least a stub yard in there. Perhaps an intermodal yard with dock?

Okay, got a revision I like - let me know what you think.

What I like.....

1.  no duck under -  the blue main line now encompasses the entire room and has built in reverse loop.  I thought to avoid double track on the right side make a reverse loop.  But what do you think about double track on then right side and maybe a passing siding.   My goal was at least one long main line I could run long passenger train and have minimal switches... this adds 2 switches but the non-derail feature will keep them running without worrying about the direction of the switch.

2.  I now have enough length to have 2% or better grades - feel  more comfortable about that.

3.  Found a good spot for the container yard...and kept a secondary yard in the bottom left.  

4.  Gold - freight line - leave main classification yard on the right access to cars in secondary yard or industrial sidings.  

5.  Blue goes to all three areas.....green just to bottom 2 on left and gold middle and right side

6.  Green line needs 2 go to red to reverse or gold depending on direction.   All lines can now reverse.

7  Had to shorten the passenger yard to make the sharper turn at the "bend" will have to work on that to get the length I am looking for there.  

8.  Still having trouble with elevation on the software  so ignore what the tracks cross looks like.   I put in light color what is in the tunnel at the "bend"  so you won't be seeing all those track turning the corner...only the passenger yard....

Okay give it to me ....what needs to be fixed?

In my opinion, the single-track part of the blue line to the reversing loop at lower right significantly reduces the number of trains you could run on the blue line without adding meaningful operational interest.

I encourage you to think through how you will follow along with your train. Both the blue and green lines cross themselves, leaving you on the wrong side of the lobe a good deal of the time. Unless all the track follows the edge, there will be times when you have to walk around a lobe to get to your train, but you could cut this way down by flipping the blue loop in the lower lobe, and flipping one of the two green loops to eliminate the crossing.

A "main" classification yard takes a lot of room. At least lead, ladder(s), width, and length need to be considered soon.  You might have more width to work with at the top of the layout than on the right side. Perhaps the lead could be on the right side. The aisle at right already looks a bit tight (I have no idea what the real dimensions are here). Too many yard body tracks here and you'd have to shorten the lobes at left to maintain the aisle.

You mention you haven't built the walls yet. Wondering about the building itself? This is basically a square space. It's usually easier to design for a rectangular one. Has the building been built? If not, is there dimensional flexibility?

@Ken Wing posted:

In my opinion, the single-track part of the blue line to the reversing loop at lower right significantly reduces the number of trains you could run on the blue line without adding meaningful operational interest.   Agree - wasn't sure i liked that anyway

I encourage you to think through how you will follow along with your train. Both the blue and green lines cross themselves, leaving you on the wrong side of the lobe a good deal of the time. Unless all the track follows the edge, there will be times when you have to walk around a lobe to get to your train, but you could cut this way down by flipping the blue loop in the lower lobe, and flipping one of the two green loops to eliminate the crossing.  Hmmm, that doesn't bother me as much i kinda like the figure 8 effect....I have to get down to the lower level for the double crossover...

A "main" classification yard takes a lot of room. At least lead, ladder(s), width, and length need to be considered soon.  You might have more width to work with at the top of the layout than on the right side. Perhaps the lead could be on the right side. The aisle at right already looks a bit tight (I have no idea what the real dimensions are here). Too many yard body tracks here and you'd have to shorten the lobes at left to maintain the aisle.  agree, after looking at it again, that is a no brainer to put in the back or the "top" of the layout...I just always had in mind mind from the start it would be on that right side....and if you do that...then do you move the passengers yard to the right side at the blue level?.....you are coming in at above the gold level just make the lobe in bottom right all at the blue level.   If you had the passenger yard there you could make the middle lobe a little smaller thus giving some more aisleway as it is tight like you say about 2 feet.  Now then bottom lobe could be made a little smaller as you are not cramming in the passenger yard.

You mention you haven't built the walls yet. Wondering about the building itself? This is basically a square space. It's usually easier to design for a rectangular one. Has the building been built? If not, is there dimensional flexibility?

Building has not been built...30 feet wide is a final.  i have a little flexibility on the other side as I have not finished drawings for the other half of the building which will be a 1 BR apartment.   It is close though...I have a little more length available on the right side than the left.   Again that is subject to final drawing of the other half of the building.

Okay, the latest and greatest...I know you have been on the edge of your seat. (joke)

What the latest revision gives me.

1.  Long blue main line to run primarily passenger trains and long container trains or other.  built in reverse loop with double crossover. - minimum switches so just let em run.

2,  No duck under or nod under

3.  nice space for freight classification yard - gold in the back/back right of the layout to be developed

4.  secondary main line green - minimum switches run whatever

5. gold line primarily freight  line - loop to loop.  Another idea is to take out the loops and put in turn around Y's at each end. lots of industry to switch

6.  fixed the aisle issues

7  container yard - not sure that is best place TBD

8 kept the stub in the left corner -

9.  I think I fixed my passenger yard (red) more work to do there would love to hear more opinions -  that lobe will not be the big downtown city with passenger thru tracks on both sides of the lobe - I think....stub end siding can run underneath city buildings.  I think there is a lot of flexibility to make this a nice yard.  I also think you might be able to have a passenger station on each side that are separated enough with tall buildings for appearance of o little distance

Feeling good about where it is.....but look forward to comments   Need to do some work on the crossovers as well.

How much space do you have between parallel curved track. Hard to understand looking at the pdf. Labels at key points would also be helpful.

I like that both the green and yellow lines make it possible to follow the train without running around a lobe. Yellow line much more interesting than in earlier versions. Blue line is much improved as double track the whole way. Personally, I would still flip blue loops in both left-side lobes to reduce running around lobes to follow train, but I hear that you are not concerned about that. I think there is potential for a wonderful stub-end passenger terminal on the right side as the top level. Remember Grand Central in NYC was stub end with loop underneath? You could do something similar here, and still have room for a B&O-type 26th Street yard on the lowest level of yellow--with a car float!!

@ScoutingDad posted:

How much space do you have between parallel curved track. Hard to understand looking at the pdf. Labels at key points would also be helpful.

Not sure about the spacing....just trying to get it on the "paper"  work out the details later.   Here is some labels - does that help?

@Ken Wing posted:

I like that both the green and yellow lines make it possible to follow the train without running around a lobe. Yellow line much more interesting than in earlier versions. Blue line is much improved as double track the whole way. Personally, I would still flip blue loops in both left-side lobes to reduce running around lobes to follow train, but I hear that you are not concerned about that. I think there is potential for a wonderful stub-end passenger terminal on the right side as the top level. Remember Grand Central in NYC was stub end with loop underneath? You could do something similar here, and still have room for a B&O-type 26th Street yard on the lowest level of yellow--with a car float!!

Yes I really like the blue and yellow lines now.....green just add a line

If I flip the loops it makes the up and down tighter and I still would have to crossover the yellow line as it is on the outside.

I think there is a great opportunity for passenger yard terminal...that is where I really need to some time and reading and get help here....same with the freight yard....want make the most efficient use of the space.

And like I said while the two passenger stations will be connected I think i can disguise that and give the feel of small town station and big city terminal

Were not done but - thanks to specifically

@Ken Wing @ scoutingdad

both of your help and suggestions are much appreciated.

@msp posted:

Not sure about the spacing....just trying to get it on the "paper"  work out the details later.   Here are some labels - does that help?

I get it that you are just trying to get it on paper.  The labels did help.  I am worried that when you get down to details, some track arrangements won’t work out.  ScoutingDad Jeff knows that happened for me, I believe.  I’m not trying to criticize at all.  I’m having trouble seeing how all the tracks will fit.  I realize it would be more clear if I saw the actual drawing on the computer, but we have to work with what we have.  

So, latest revision, I took out the green line....it was just in the way and going nowhere.   Amazing how this thing has evolved.  Very little like the original....I have added some notes that i hope will help and not clutter.  I know it is hard to differentiate colors.

As far as exact curves etc.  I think i am real close to everything fitting ....if I have to tweak the radius a bit I have some flexibility to do that.  

I can pull in long passenger trains into the city station or going other way into the small town station - I can have 2 or 3 trains queued up to go either way the blue elevated line between will help separate as if they are 2 separate places but actually share track

I think I am real close now....what do you think?

I think that is more doable without the green track.

If I understand what I am looking at, the light blue track is a ramp down to the red tracks. A passenger train entering the red can either pull forward to the town station or back into the big city station. Afterward, it has to back up the light blue ramp to get back to blue going in the right direction. If you reverse the train using the pink loop, it will be running against traffic on the main until it can cross over at top. That will be a serious bottleneck, having a section of two-way track in your big main dog-bone.

If you double track the blue line in the center lobe instead of crossing the lobe with one track, you can have 100% of your mainlines right in front of you, and zero need to go around a lobe to follow your train.

I would also consider moving the big city/passenger terminal to the right side. Then you could have several smaller towns/stations along the route.

Ken - you have mentioned this a couple of times now.  "need to go around a lobe to follow your train" Do you walk around your layout with a controller in your hand while running trains?

My idea of running trains is sitting on a stool with an adult beverage in hand, watching 'em run. Can't imagine needing to walk around the layout with the trains to operate. 

I built my layout with fixed, vintage transformers in four different places, conventional control only. Mostly, I ran the layout from one, and sat on a stool. Recently, I bought a used TMCC setup with Cab-1 remote. I like following the train(s) around the room closely much much better than sitting in one place.  They look better two feet away than 20 feet away. Also, you see a lot less "layout room" in your view, and a lot more "train in scenery."

I think Jeff ScoutingDad and I don’t know what it’s like to watch our trains from 20 feet away.  If I had a layout that allowed this much travel, I would like to follow the train around.  This layout msp is designing will be a fun one to follow trains.

Ah,  i understand.  When i build i try to think about what i will see from various vantage points and build the layout from there. I think its a matter of DNA wiring,  some of us like to see an up close view, other like to view the entire field. For example i much prefer watching a footbalk game from up high. I've been on the field and do not enjoy the game from that perspective. Of course my layout is small 12x12 so not much point in walking around.

I did not design my layout primarily for viewing. My top priority is realistic operation. I seek to capture B&O operations through Cumberland MD circa 1950. Obviously a lot of selective compression and compromise is needed. My Cumberland isn't long enough to hold the 11-car Shenandoah for its station stop, but I love making it up and running it anyway--based on actual B&O Consist Books.

@Ken Wing posted:

If I understand what I am looking at, the light blue track is a ramp down to the red tracks. Correct A passenger train entering the red can either pull forward to the town station or back into the big city station. No need to back in ...turqouise track dumps  you right in front of the city station....or proceed to the country station. Afterward, it has to back up the light blue ramp to get back to blue going in the right direction. Never was intent to back anywhere....if you leave the country station you exit to the gold loop and have to go all the way down and back to reverse.  As far as the blue going the wrong direction.....I was thinking it would just go the other direction not considering there might be other trains out there.   This is kinda a new concept because currently (my layout now) the train goes the direction the train goes and no worry about direction because it is the only one on the main.   So, you point is well taken I need better directional control leaving both passenger stations.  Probably do not want to tie up gold line just to reverse train.  If you reverse the train using the pink loop, it will be running against traffic on the main until it can cross over at top. That will be a serious bottleneck, having a section of two-way track in your big main dog-bone.   agree this needs some work

If you double track the blue line in the center lobe instead of crossing the lobe with one track, you can have 100% of your mainlines right in front of you, and zero need to go around a lobe to follow your train.  I am not exactly following this.....as far as following the lobe...if you are walking following your train....then be definition are you not going around the lobe to track the train?

as far as I am concerned the back aisle in ables you to follow your train entirely around the layout if you wish.

I would also consider moving the big city/passenger terminal to the right side. Then you could have several smaller towns/stations along the route. thought about that, Not sure there is room and not sure I want to have back to back large yards - and I like the idea of being to walk completely around a big downtown city.....

Okay i think I have the problems fixed.   Now you go up and down the turquoise line and can exit or enter in either direction.   Took out the pink reverse loop that was taking you the wrong way.   exit country station and share reverse loop with yellow line....can either run yellow line or reverse back into the passenger yard and exit through city terminal -

Inside passenger red line provides long lead to stub sidings...can make up train and push out to thru tracks

Still under 2% grade

This works much better. I also like that some passenger trains can take the yellow loop before their station stop, so that your stations will have trains arriving from both directions.

I don't see how the lone double crossover is adding anything. If you move one of the crossovers to the right wall, you would create the possibility of a limited using the wrong main to overtake a local or mail train, and then returning to the right track.

An earlier plan had an engine terminal. If having one is important to you, it's time to find a home for it.

"If you double track the blue line in the center lobe instead of crossing the lobe with one track, you can have 100% of your mainlines right in front of you, and zero need to go around a lobe to follow your train.  I am not exactly following this.....as far as following the lobe...if you are walking following your train....then be definition are you not going around the lobe to track the train?

as far as I am concerned the back aisle in ables you to follow your train entirely around the layout if you wish."

The short section of blue single track that runs vertically along the left wall while its partner goes around the middle lobe is the culprit. You could put your hand on your train anywhere else on the blue line. When it enters that section, you have to walk around the lobe to get back close to your train.

@Ken Wing posted:

This works much better. I also like that some passenger trains can take the yellow loop before their station stop, so that your stations will have trains arriving from both directions.

I don't see how the lone double crossover is adding anything. If you move one of the crossovers to the right wall, you would create the possibility of a limited using the wrong main to overtake a local or mail train, and then returning to the right track.

An earlier plan had an engine terminal. If having one is important to you, it's time to find a home for it.

your suggesting break up the double crossover and move one to the right wall....I agree....I will need to squeeze in some engine sidings around the passenger yard.  Since The building drawing isn't complete I am going to try and squeeze three more feet on the left side 6" inches on the back wall width to 3.5"   increase the back aisle from 3" to 4" and add 1 foot to the middle lobe...this will free up some room for engine sidings.  the final 6 inches in the aisle at the bottom

'

I like the whole idea. If I were doing it I would have a "master plan" of the property drawn up by a professional. Where would you put the main living house if you later were to choose to build and move onto the property. Things like utilities, topography, water runoff, ingress & egress are important. I would want to know that if I decided to build a house I would not have to move my train shed. Keep us in the loop as you take on this adventure. Cheers.

@GVDobler posted:

I like the whole idea. If I were doing it I would have a "master plan" of the property drawn up by a professional. Where would you put the main living house if you later were to choose to build and move onto the property. Things like utilities, topography, water runoff, ingress & egress are important. I would want to know that if I decided to build a house I would not have to move my train shed. Keep us in the loop as you take on this adventure. Cheers.

thanks for the encouragement....yes we will have a plan and a process......believe me there will be no moving the train room

Closing on the 25 acres in a couple of weeks....

That sounds great about the closing!  Then you can pitch a tent or pull in a trailer and bask on your own property.  I do believe you will come up with a great plan for the building and all the necessary site development will be spot on!

I can at least pull up a chair and sit there!    

Okay the latest.....

some changes I have made.....

1.  added gold track in front of country station that make a loop on gold line for local trains....effectively replaces the green line I deleted....so gold can run loop in bottom 2 fingers or full loop to loop.

2.  added Y at bottom yard

3.  moved container yard to other side....looked very croweded once the passenger yard went in.

4.  Passenger Yard - still a work in progress....stubb tracks isolated from 2 main lines....gold reverse loop back to red main line.

I am pretty sure about  moving the container yard....the other three....works in progress.

Let me know your thoughts.....

Several thoughts:

1. Red joins both gold and light blue; thus they must be at same level. In the middle lobe, light blue and gold have no clearance, as if they were supposed to be grade separated. I recommend a grade check over the whole line to ensure you have either enough vertical clearance for grade separation, or horizontal clearance if not. Avoid having too many situations of parallel tracks at different heights with minimum horizontal separation where the only possible scenic treatment is retaining walls.

2. The top two corners and all three lobes are too large to access all track from the aisle. Time to plan for access.

3. Remember to move one of the blue crossovers at top to the right hand side.

1.  red joins gold and light blue at base level....where red joins light blue - 1.8% eleveation to get to dark blue....will need to maneuver the curves in that middle lobe

all the loops run the potential of retaining wall....could cover the lower level with the higher level

2  Yea...moving the container yard I lost a lot of reach on back left....back right I can tighten up....the lobes...well - will keep track close to the edge.  but will look for access points.

3.  Yes...