Looking for experienced alternate suggestion to drywall for finishing basement walls

Tom-

I wonder if there are more sophisticated sanding methods for drywall that would incorporate simultaneous vacuuming of the dust?

Good topic, and with all of the beautiful train rooms built by many forum members, I am sure that you will get some excellent suggestions!

Cordially,

Dad

When sanding sheet rock/drywall I use an open grid sand paper with a handle that attaches to my vacuum. Just about no dust.

http://www.homedepot.com/catal...0a496a370d83_300.jpg

wet sponge and bucket of water creates NO dust!

Just Google 'wet drywall sanding' and check it out. It works well, but you must be patient and wring early and often.
Regards, Ben Brown

RE: quote "wet sponge and bucket of water creates NO dust!"

Especially if professionally spackled.

You could always use pre-finished wood panelling like we all did back in the 70's for basement rec rooms. This would create no dust if you do the sawing outside, and it would be about the same or less for cost.

Rod

After 35 years in the construction trade, it still amazes me that people want work done with out making dirt. If general clean-up at the end of the day is 15 minutes, that's 3% of total labor cost. More extensive vacuum and clean-up 30 minutes (6%). Scrub, mob, and dust 1 hr. each day.(13%) I guess it depends just how much dirt bothers you.

Hire a crew to do the drywall work they do it every day work fast and know what they are doing.

Get it in writing, retain 10% until you are satisfied and get referrals.
Go to see their work in others homes.

"Mike Holmes" only works in Canada, I do everything my self now because no one ever comes back for a touch up or repair once they have been paid.

Just because someone has a truck with a sign on the side and a toolbox.
Does not make them a contractor!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike CT:
After 35 years in the construction trade, it still amazes me that people want work done with out making dirt. If general clean-up at the end of the day is 15 minutes, that's 3% of total labor cost. More extensive vacuum and clean-up 30 minutes (6%). Scrub, mob, and dust 1 hr. each day.(13%) I guess it depends just how much dirt bothers you.

Thanks Mike-

I think Tom understands that. He is more concerned about his family that will be very sensitive to fine dust particles. Tom is no stranger to dust and dirt, as he used to help my dad, a bricklayer, and was outside yesterday planting and tilling on a tractor. IMHO, having done it for many summers, there is nothing like a face full of mortar dust after dumping a 70 lb. bag of Peerless Mortar into the rotating drum of a cement mixer!

I fully understand an educated and experienced engineer who largely built his own very large deck looking out for the health and welfare of his young family. As you properly note, it depends how much [dust] bothers the customer, and in this case, at this time, large amounts of dust in the air will be problematic. Trades workers have to make dust in many circumstances, but if you have a reason to explore alternatives that may be less problematic, then that is a worthwhile inquiry, and we very much appreciate all of the very helpful information.

Cordially,

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Tee:
Insulated finished interlocking foam panels intended to be adhesive applied on basement walls have vertical & horizontal wire runs formed into them.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

If drywall is the best option, I am sure I can hire it done properly.

After the experience I had with contractors and my deck, I would like to explore drywall alternatives that I can do myself. If there aren't any that are cost effective, or even any good, then drywall probably makes the most sense.

Tom, Do you have any experience with any of the interlocking panels?

You might want to look into Owens Corning basement system, more expensive then
traditional sheet rock.

George

quote:

Originally posted by StreamLiner01:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Tee:
Insulated finished interlocking foam panels intended to be adhesive applied on basement walls have vertical & horizontal wire runs formed into them.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

If drywall is the best option, I am sure I can hire it done properly.

After the experience I had with contractors and my deck, I would like to explore drywall alternatives that I can do myself. If there aren't any that are cost effective, or even any good, then drywall probably makes the most sense.

Tom, Do you have any experience with any of the interlocking panels?

After taking the backdrop painting seminar at the Amhest Railway Society train show, I've decided to use plywood instead of sheet rock. As long as you use a high quality plywood with a smooth surface, you can paint your backdrop directly on the plywood.

No plastering/taping/sanding required.

What is the fire rating on plywood? Is it allowable by code? Just asking as I do not know the answer.

for joint compound USG now makes a low dust product.

low dust compound

Like some above I use Luan board or Thin Hardboard (Masonite) since I paint and texture it as part of backdrop, after priming. These are lighter then plywood and easy to handle and may be curved. This leaves a seam between each panel section

If you go with drywall but have even small moisture or condensation issues, be sure use USG Greenboard its designed to be used in wet conditions like bathrooms, and will not swell and disintegrate like reguler drywall will when exposed to moisture conditions long term.

Tom,

We moved into our house last August and finished the basement first, about 2,300 Sq-Ft, of which over 1,200 are the train room. I did it all myself (with the help of my wife) and used about 300 - 2x4’s and 64+ sheets of drywall. I have posted some of this work.

Before & After

Steps

Some useful hints:
• Steel studs are not as good to hang things on to, and they are not as easy to hang drywall either. We just went through a renovation at work, we had to use the steel studs (required by code) and I heard bad stories from the construction contractor.

• You can hang and finish regular drywall with almost no dust. As has been posted, you can use a vacuum and water bucket system, or a wet sponge and have practically no dust. If you do the mudding properly, you shouldn’t have to sand much at all in the first place.

• I left one wall as poured – ‘raw’ concrete – used a spackling compound to smooth it somewhat, and painted my backdrop directly on it. You can hardly tell the difference between the backdrop painted on drywall and that painted on the concrete. I painted all the 'city buildings' backdrop on the concrete.

In February I started on the layout.
See here: Layout in Progress

Good luck!

Alex

Thanks everyone, you have helped me understand ways around a lot of my concerns about drywall.

Tony, I want to finish the walls to create additional family space in the house. The design of my layout is such that I will still have substantial common space for the kids to play, and to entertain. I am also keeping in mind that the train layout may change size, shape ect, and we may decide to move at some point. This is our first home, and although we love it right now, we may move at some point and having the walls completely finished I think will make it easier in the long run.

vsmith, I do have some dampness, I haven't ever seen droplets of water anywhere. I have looked at the "Greenboard" Is there a particular brand you suggest? I have read that installing the boards spaced above the floor helps keep moisture from wicking up the boards.

Alex, I have heard similar stories about the metal studs. I like the idea of having a material that won't swell with moisture, but I am not sure this out ways the issues with using metal. What was the reason you spackled the wall? Was there any functional benefit over finishing it with drywall? In your photos I had assumed those walls were drywall.

Tom Tee, Thanks for the suggestion on the Portland. Are there any other tips you have for accommodating moisture?

-Tom...I understand your plans for the room better. I also understand your goal to make the basement a more finished space if/when you move and when your kids get older...keep in mind that as they do get older...well, you need to protect the layout from the stray bouncing ball, etc. In my other line of work, chicken wire seems to stop most of the big chunks of the beer bottles thrown. (OK, while I am a blues musician, we don't really play that type of venue...the ones we play cannot afford the chicken wire.)

Your goal of minor dust from finished wall construction is certainly within reach.

Speaking of the band...a link to our live recording is attached:

Slick Willie and the Right Cats live at Zannotti's.

quote:

Originally posted by StreamLiner01:
What was the reason you spackled the wall? Was there any functional benefit over finishing it with drywall? In your photos I had assumed those walls were drywall.[/b]

Tom,

Because the surface left by the forms in some areas was rather rough, and there were some holes as big as approximately 1/2-inch diameter and 1/4-inch deep. What I used was “Alex” brand (no relation) Painter’s Acrylic Latex Caulk, and this worked great. I did not try to get a perfectly smooth surface, but instead covered up the bigger holes and smoothed out the rougher parts. It worked fine.

I did not dry walled that wall because it stayed warm in the winter, was very straight and plum, and I wanted to save the 4-1/2 to 5 inches lost when I build the 2x4 stud frame in front of it. That happens to be the longest wall, almost 38 feet, and simply caulking and painting it saved a lot of work.

BTW, the third basement I finished (this was the sixth) I used 1 x 3-inch furring strips and this worked OK, but the wiring was a challenge. They do offer shallow electrical boxes (or at least they used to), but the furring strips do not lend themselves well to hanging stuff from them either.

Alex

quote:

Originally posted by StreamLiner01:
Thanks everyone, you have helped me understand ways around a lot of my concerns about drywall.


vsmith, I do have some dampness, I haven't ever seen droplets of water anywhere. I have looked at the "Greenboard" Is there a particular brand you suggest? I have read that installing the boards spaced above the floor helps keep moisture from wicking up the boards.

[/b]

"Greenboard" is the building industry term for water resisitant drywall, its usually used in bathrooms other wet locations, it used to be wrapped in green paper so it was easy to distinguish on site.

http://www.usg.com/sheetrock-m...h-gypsum-panels.html

This is the latest version of the moisture resistant drywall from the best brand USG, its not wrapped in green paper anymore but its now mold resistant as well as moisture resistant and fire resistant to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by DMASSO:
What is the fire rating on plywood? You can purchase "non-com." plywood or any wood, treated with a fire retardant to inhibit combustion. There are also applicable paints that achieve almost the same thing. You would see a lot of non-com used in commercial applications were wall backing for cabinetry or handrails is a must. But I have also seen wall backing done with heavy gauge sheet metal, apparently "non com" is expensive. Is it allowable by code? Interesting question when applied to a residential application. Most furnishings, wall coverings, floor coverings, furniture, etc. unless specifically address as non combustible are as much at issue as plywood paneling would be. As Tom mentioned via PA Universal Construction codes, best to pull a permit, which will require engineered, stamped drawings for the project in question (Significant cost involved). That might answer you question, might not, depends on the inspector and the interpretation of the code in that municipality. The only common fire rated surface you see in residential construction would be integral automotive storage areas. Normally should be done with 5/8" fire rated drywall and taped, which may or may not give you a 1 hr fire rating. A door leading to the living space from the garage area should also be fire rated. It doesn't make sense to fire rate a wall and then use a non rated door. Things seems to be a bit more complex in commercial construction, there are also fire rated sealant/caulkings to be used were floors or walls have had holes drilled in them, usually there is someone of superior knowlege that will tell you after the fact, what should have been. Seldom will anyone give this information before construction, even though the approved drawings are reviewed, usually by the same people who do the inspections. You should have known. Just asking as I do not know the answer.

If you look around most any room in a residence there is a whole lot that's going to burn before you get to the walls. IMO

Tom:

We used a system provided by Owens Corning. Google their basement wall system and you will be impressed. It has been in service in our home for 7 years and no moisture, no problems with the walls, and nothing but good looks.

There is a photo gallery of how good this system looks.

The owens corning system is nice, but last I checked it is not DYI, you have to go through a contractor, and it isn't cheap. Not sure if Passenger Train had it installed or if Owen now allows you to do it yourself.

Another suggestion might be to use sheetrock but don't finish it, then on the outside of it use various forms of masonite wallboard. It is kind of like the old wood panelling, but it comes in a variety of styles, including tileboard, and a nicely done beadboard style, it comes in 4x8 sheets and Home Depot for one carries it. If you use that, you probably don't have to worry about taping the joints in the sheetrock, since it will be covered. The stuff I looked at wasn't particularly expensive, and I am thinking of using it in finishing up my basement.

If the walls are sound, and you don't have leaks, what about attaching backdrops, such as SceniKing? Instead of going through the cost of hanging drywall and all of the extra work, just add a braced sheet of 1/4" plywood or foam board to the back.

Just a thought.

A good drywall contractor does little sanding, they are that good with the finishing trowel.

Our Owens Corning Wall System was professionally installed. We had the entire basement done at the time the house was built and it was reasonable compared to other quality systems.

The real test is the fact that 7 years have past and it has stood the test of time from what Owens had to say about it's performance. I highly recommend this system.

Stewart, great suggestion about the foam board. I'm doing room prep for my layout, and currently have OSB (oriented strand board)on the walls, was going to hang sheetrock because the surface is too rough for the background scenery glue-on panels. However,cost and time considered, why would I do that, when foam will do the trick? Thanks, great idea. JA

Thanks for the additional suggestions, as they are very helpful!

Passenger Train Collector:

Thanks for the very helpful comments regarding your overall experience with the Owens Corning Basement System. I recommended to Tom that he ask a representative to come over, analyze the basement requirements and alternatives, and, perhaps provide a quotation. This way Tom can make a more informed decision for final planning.

Thanks again!

Cordially,

Dennis

The absolutely easiest way to minimize drywall dust.....is......don't put on too much.

Start with a 8" blade that is as straight as straight gets. Apply multiple coats of the mud and spread it thin..as in very thin. Make sure you don't leave any high spots anywhere. Then, when you're ready for that last couple coats, use a 12" blade with a very, very slight curvature to its edge and again...apply a thin coat with the blade "bowed" up (outside edges touch first). This fans the mud out and fully conceals the tape seam. Any sanding can be done with an over-damp sponge. Result? Virtually ZERO dust.

It sounds harder than it is - and once you pull back on the amount you apply in one pass - it gets easier. And yes, I used to hang drywall for a living.

When we had our addition built, where my layout is now, the contractor placed the pvc gray-water pipe around two walls of the new basement. That, coupled with the fact that on some points, the guys weren't giving me a lot of respect as to my wishes on some things, made me go with Owens-Corning. The job was done in ten days, and it is very nice. The big thing is that, if there's ever a problem with the pipes behind the wall, I can simply take out panels for access and then put them back in. I would say, however, that it probably cost twice what the other guys would have charged for a drywall job, but the job may never have gotten done. These aren't the best shots, but they give you the idea of the look:







Bob Blomberg

Bob-

You have a beautiful layout, train room, and finished basement! Thank you for your excellent comments and advice also. Tom and I have been discussing the different plusses and minuses of the different basement solutions.

Your post highlights two of the significant "pluses" of the OC basement solution that we discussed:

Tom has a "poured concrete" basement. In the absence of drywall covering, any leak, including a crack in the wall, is generally easy to find and easier to repair. Once drywalled, the water can migrate behind the drywall, making location of the leak likely more difficult, more disruptive, damaging, and expensive to repair. As you mention, the OC System helps to solve this problem with easy removal and replacement of the individual panels.

Secondly, Tom went through three different contractors, as I recall, in building his very large deck, and finally completed the job by himself with much time nd effort. The OC System involves professional installation, likely positive response and support to problems when encountered, and, a warranty.

I suspect in a more normal real estate environment, the resale value of the house (in our area at least) might reflect some added payback for the choice of the OC system, but that is speculation, and can be somewhat verified or defeated by a chat with a friendly RE agent. In this regard, I had Tom inquire from a trusted RE estate agent regarding the enhanced housing value resulting from finishing the basement. In our area, in normal times (not these times, in all likelihood), finishing the basement returns 60% to 100% if the cost and extent of the re-modeling is not out of line with the area where the residence is located.

Again, many thanks to you and to all of the forum members who have contributed to this thread. The suggestions, advice, and photos have been tremendously helpful to Tom in evaluating, researching and making a decision, including the ultimate more informed selection of materials for an environment that will likely involve moisture, and possible water leaks.

Cordially,

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by TMack:
A good drywall contractor does little sanding,

In my day I was mostly a carpenter and did the drywall as a service to the customers. I try to not sand at all. Once you rough up the paper, your problems are just beginning.

After each pass with the drywall compound (gubb), I would scrape off the boogers with my blade before attempting the next pass (no sanding). High qualiy jobs would get many passes until the whole wall was practically covered. When I considered it done, I would lightly rub the job with a drywall sander just to make sure. One quick light pass was usually enough. Remember, do not rough up the paper. If you do, put another coating of gubb to try and smooth it out.
Good luck,
-rrick

quote:

Originally posted by StreamLiner01:
The ceiling height is about 9' to the floor supports.

Has anyone used an alternative to drywall that they can share some experience good or bad?

You can get some nice wood paneling in 4x8 sheets. The good stuff that you'll want will get a bit pricey. You can get in 4x9 sheets also and the price goes up even faster. Home Depot is not my favourite store for this stuff. Check them out anyway, just in case. A real lumber yard will get you a better selection. Look for sales.

I've glued panels directly to concrete. It gets a bit labor intensive because after pushing the panel on against the glue, you have to peel it back and let the glue almost dry before you can push it back and have it stick.

If it were mine, I'd stud the walls with wood first. That would allow you to run electrical wherever you want, and make it easier to attach the panels or drywall. Sometimes concrete walls will sweat a bit in basements.

-rrick

Tom,

Lots of good advise here. One thing to consider is if you use the prefinished panels it may affect the resale value of your home .Folks don't want to see lines on the walls.Me I'd bite the bullet and go with traditional drywall

Don't know where you are, but in New Jersey if you put up drywall in your basement it is considered a finished basement, and your property taxes will go up. If you don't report it you will have to rip it all out when you go to sell. Or, if you simply paint the concrete walls, it is not considered a finished basement.

How to beat a increased tax assessment:

Flat trowel skim coat the masonary walls flat smooth with a non-gypsum portland based Ardex feather finish. With a quality paint job it will look like a finished wall.

Use a non fastened floor covering.

Airless spray a flat black paint on the open joist ceiling and it will disappear along with any chance of a tax assessment increase.

quote:

Originally posted by rrick:

quote:

Originally posted by StreamLiner01:
The ceiling height is about 9' to the floor supports.

Has anyone used an alternative to drywall that they can share some experience good or bad?

You can get some nice wood paneling in 4x8 sheets. The good stuff that you'll want will get a bit pricey. You can get in 4x9 sheets also and the price goes up even faster. Home Depot is not my favourite store for this stuff. Check them out anyway, just in case. A real lumber yard will get you a better selection. Look for sales.

I've glued panels directly to concrete. It gets a bit labor intensive because after pushing the panel on against the glue, you have to peel it back and let the glue almost dry before you can push it back and have it stick.

If it were mine, I'd stud the walls with wood first. That would allow you to run electrical wherever you want, and make it easier to attach the panels or drywall. Sometimes concrete walls will sweat a bit in basements.

-rrick

rrick-

This is essentially how my basement is finished, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it for many years. We used 1 x 3 strips behind the paneling, and low depth electrical boxes. We chose a lighter color paneling, and use a bit more lighting to keep the rooms bright since the walls are not white. Because of the 1" distance from the walls, which provides an air space, we have not had moisture problems. Also. no painting for 20+ years -- which is likely a downside for those who like a color change.

Cordially,

Dennis

Well, this might be a day late and a dollar short but, this is what I did (pictures will come at some point).

I had my basement walls spray foamed for insulation (the bat insullation had some mold from an old leak, fixed with injection) (thanks Mike Holmes!).

After that I used Metal Studs (Mike Holmes seems to hate them, but I learned how to use them in NYC with H4H) inside the foam, I planned out the studding plan with how the drywall would go up (ie in corners I determined which side would go in first and shifted the other stud out 1/2", planned out where all the joints were and doubled up the studs there). Very important, if you run wiring through the holes in a steel stud, you HAVE to use a plastic gromet (because mine weren't up against the wall, I actually hung the wire off the back side of the studs - used PVC straps to hold them up (on every stud).

I used 100 sheets of 4x8 drywall - had no problem hanging it on the steel studs (make sure you use the right screws!). I hired someone to do the spackling - very minimal dust. I then painted and am currently in the process of putting the molding in. I did it all myself (except the sprayfoam and mudding) - and with full permits. One of the inspectors is a train lover, so he comes over spending 10 minutes checking my progress then we talk about lionel for another 30 minutes. :-)

-John

PS: Hope your project is coming along well!

John, several years ago I took the exact same approach and found that the sprayed in Isofoam from IPI international did several things.

1.- Temp control. It settles in at around 6.9 r value per inch of thickness. I used 3 1/2" thickness to fill all wall stud bays.

2.- Sound attenuation. The basement became very quiet. virtually no outside noise.

3.- No more air leaks. There were a few very small holes in the old wall which would shoot tiny streams of cold air in the winter.

4.- Critters gone. This sprayed in process must have closed up small access points. Spider population dropped about 90+ percent.

5.- Moisture permeation stopped. The train room became arid.

It is very important to be sure to prewire all anticipated wire needs. I also ran all my Del-Air tubing for turnout control. Plus we ran a bunch of wires to facilitate future needs. I should have run some empty conduit, so nothing is perfect tt