Loose gear LC+ RS3

If you are still within the 1 year warranty period, contact Lionel and arrange for it to be repaired by Lionel free of charge. Arnold

Thanks Arnold. I bought this around 2014. I bought it from Charles Ro, and I know they do service. However, up until now, I have never had to have anything repaired, I guess I've been lucky! Do you know what a repair could potentially cost? 

No idea.

My strategy with new stuff like LC+ that is out of warranty, is only to run it when I have an audience, like my 7 year old granddaughter. That way, I feel like I'm minimizing the need and cost of possible future repairs.

For everyday train running, I usually run Postwar, which is very durable, reliable and fixable. Arnold

Oh my goodness. My whole world is Lionchief! Your strategy, while enviable, is not adaptable for me. 

Thanks again. 

First off post war trains break too. I should know. You have to become good at finding spare parts, making repairs and sometimes making your own tools. Or you send it out for repairs.

Which train do you actually have? Model number? Road name? Did it come in a set?

Is it just the one gear? Are you good at fixing things like this?

Cost of repair could be a few dollars for the gear or $50 to $100 to send it out. Of course this all depends on exactly what is broken.

I'm more into fixing my post war because they always break down. I have more than a few older RS-3's with plastic gears but even with hard use I haven't broken one.

I you give me more info maybe I can help you decide if you can repair or send it out.

I wouldn't characterize the strategy as enviable. I pay $300 plus whatever for an engine, I'm going to run it. No sense having a bunch of money tied up and then babying it.  Out of warranty, no problem. There are lots of people available to fix engines. 

The plastic gear has stripped on the gear axle, only repair is replace the gear. The gear is around 3.00 and all you have to do is tap the new gear on the shaft. Fairly simple repair you can do at home.  If Lionel has the gear.

Replace it with a Williams or MTH truck block. No excuse for using plastic gears

Just checked Lonel's parts list. Obsolete. Figures.

Can you push it back on and put a little jbweld on it?

I have a Lionchief Christmas set that has this very same problem but the gear has not fallen all the way off. It was so bad I decided to set up DCS for the Christmas layout and run an MTH engine this year. The LC only got used once for last years Christmas layout. 

This is an idler gear I believe that turns on a shaft between the drivers. No way that I can tell to keep it in place. Mine was this way from the factory. I'll stay away from LC in the future. Dislike plastic gears in drive applications.

Good morning, and thanks for all the replies that came in overnight. 

The engine in question is Chicago & North Western Lionchief™ Plus RS-3 Diesel #1621

I had just set her up to be an ore hauler; purchased the ore care 6 pack by that road name to match up. I didn't get far!

I am afraid I am not handy with repairs, and I may bring her to Charles Ro and get her fixed. However, that will burn the money earmarked for any new acquisitions, which I usually make this time of year. But that's neither here nor there, I want this running again.  

Here is some video that might flesh out some details, thanks for looking.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QQSCsPv75hxDjeQBA

What you need is this:

It is a $15 part but Lionel says it is "obsolete" and "unavailable" 

Installation of this shaft w/ gears is a simple 20min job (well, 15 min since you already have the shell off). 

Thank you Geysergazer. Obsolete and unavailable?! That doesn't bode well for resolution.

But that might make my future spending money on LionChief obsolete and unavailable! 

Kidding! I couldn't resist. I'm not that easily fazed and I do remain undeterred to get it going again. 

I've read that the Chinese vendors are no longer making production runs of parts only for purchase by the US train companies. That instead, they have to order extra items of the finished product and then disassemble them for parts. So I guess that must be true. I don't believe it was like this when Sanda Kan was the major train vendor/manufacturer in China.  I could be wrong on that, but parts for common items were certainly more readily available years ago.

Even more disheartening, is that this is a larger production run item aimed at a larger audience than some of the high end items. That it is both "obsolete" and "unavailable" is not very encouraging for anyone considering a LionChief plus locomotive purchase.

It could also be that the "formula" of the plastic has changed. As an example, I've got rolling stock from the MPC period of Lionel, where the plastic knuckle couplers still spring open when activated. I've got more recent production Lionel cars where the plastic knuckle couplers no longer spring open. They do open, but they don't spring open as my MPC era cars still do.

Heck, I've got plenty of lower-end types of locomotives with plastic gears that don't have all the latest electronic/digital features, but I've never encountered a problem with any of the plastic gears on them like this one here.

Thanks Brian, that is food for thought. And I agree, this is a common enough loco, and I believe it was a good seller, at least that's my sense of it. Interesting.

Now the repair shop, do you think it will be the same story with them? The part required is unavailable and obsolete, and therefore we can't fix it? 

It's "obsolete" because it is a bad design. It's "unavailable"because others have had the same failure and exhausted the parts supply.

There's a good chance the new part would fail again anyway.

I'd get it touch with Ro and see what your options are.

Thanks Rick. Wow, this problem is turning out to be surprisingly severe! I am going to move on this, up until now I didn't consider it urgent, but I plan to get over to Charlie Ro, no later than tomorrow. 

It was the Lionchief product line that brought me off the fence and back into the hobby. I had a set when I was young, and considered picking back up with it again, and the Lionchief engines and their wireless remotes was the compelling factor. And as such, that is all I have, a nice little roster of (2) RS3, (2) FT units, (2) GP7's.

I was going to add a NW2 this year, but that is on freeze for now.

Well that's interesting info Rick.

Out of curiosity, I looked on the Lionel parts website. I don't know the production runs: Which model is older and which is newer. But I do see an RS-3 LionChief truck assembly with a similar part, but a brass gear instead. Item #8 and this one is marked as available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...3f-9901-63fd7c3bc9b0

The big question is whether the newer improved (?) part will work with your particular LionChief RS-3, or will you have to purchase an entirely new truck assembly. Maybe someone at Ro's would know the answer, but I'd think you'd be better off sending a question to the Lionel service department, or giving them a call to find out if the parts are compatible between the different model numbers.

Addendum: It sounds like you live near Ro's, and I see they have a repair department, so that would probably be a first bet.

Lionel Lionchief diesel trucks leave a lot to be desired. A club member has three identical C-420s. Even though the gear on the main drive shaft is brass, the shaft has too much play and the gear only engages half the surface of the idler gears. The idler gears are very loose on their bearings and hang off at an angle. As a result the gears no longer engage on one engine and the other two engines are not far behind.

I don't know of any other 3 rail diesel with trucks made as poorly other than early Weaver with their phenolic gears that split.

Pete

Thanks Norton. This is becoming downright grim now! 

Okay, first Sean you need this new part. I don't know if this would work with the LionChief engines, but @gunrunnerjohn made a post elsewhere on this forum about using the plastic snap closers from bread bags as a snap in spacer to help gears align better.

I had one engine with one axle that wasn't engaging the gear as good as it could. So I tried John's idea, so I took one of those bread bag closers, cut it down in size just a little bit, popped it in on the opposite side of the geared wheel on the engine, and it made a big improvement.

Granted, this doesn't excuse poor design engineering. And I'm talking about improving an engine I paid $35.00 for, not $250-$300. But John's idea certainly helped in my case, and he has had experience with train repairs, so maybe (?) he would know.

This here is one of the reasons I stick with "tried and tried" instead of "new and improved," which might not always necessarily add up to "improved" as much as "new."

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Well that's interesting info Rick.

Out of curiosity, I looked on the Lionel parts website. I don't know the production runs: Which model is older and which is newer. But I do see an RS-3 LionChief truck assembly with a similar part, but a brass gear instead. Item #8 and this one is marked as available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...3f-9901-63fd7c3bc9b0

The big question is whether the newer improved (?) part will work with your particular LionChief RS-3, or will you have to purchase an entirely new truck assembly.

The answer is no.  Look at them side by side, the brass gear is much smaller to start.

Thanks again Brian, but I have decided that the first step on the resolution path will be a visit to Charles Ro, where I bought this and all my other stuff, and take it from there. 

I plan to update after my visit which will be no later than tomorrow.

Looks like you have 2 options. 1st is remove the gear assembly and use Lock-tite on the gear and shaft. I would use red Lock-tite over JB Weld in this situation as will have better gripping power on the slippery plastic. And depending how much you want to spend, replace the truck block and gear with the newer version.

Lionel announced last year that it would be going back to metal gears on its LionChief models after many hobbyists complained about the plastic gears failing in this manner. That’s why the plastic gear is now obsolete.

I suggest contacting Lionel to determine if a brass gear can be substituted. An experienced repair tech at a hobby shop might be able to answer that question as well.

The C-420 I referenced above had the small brass gear but was driving two larger idler gears. I suspect if you change out the plastic drive gear with the brass gear you would also have swap out the two idler gears assuming they can be replaced easily.

Pete

No metal equivalent. i have checked in the past.

Time for a cottage industry to spring up and make metal gears for LC+ locomotives.

Any chance, since it it out of warranty, to use cyanoacrylate glue or epoxy to reattach the gear to the shaft, even if it has a minor split in it?

Norton posted:

The C-420 I referenced above had the small brass gear but was driving two larger idler gears. I suspect if you change out the plastic drive gear with the brass gear you would also have swap out the two idler gears assuming they can be replaced easily.

Pete

No go there. I suspect the pin location for the idle gears would not be in the right position. 

SeanG posted:

I take a peak, and then I see this, attached.

I went to a local train show a couple of weekends ago.  Bought a new-in-box Lionchief Plus RS3 (Pennsylvania line).  Tried to run it and saw the same thing you saw.  Busted gear.  Vendor offered to switch shells on another new-in-box Lionchief Plus RS3.  Guess what we saw when we opened the box?  Yep, the same broken gear.  This isn't a one off problem.  It seems to be a systemic issue with these engines.

It would be interesting if someone with the gear problem would send it to Lionel for repair, and see what they do with it.

Thanks for all the replies. I will update tomorrow. Hopefully, I didn't bet on the wrong horse when I went all in with Lionchief. 

breezinup posted:

I would be interesting if someone with the gear problem would send it to Lionel for repair, and see what they do with it.

I suspect if it was under warranty, they would replace the whole truck, at least I hope they would. 

Pete

Sorry haven't had any time to look for the part. However it appears some have tried. Crazy work schedule with over 6 hours of drive time today.

I would think that an updated full truck assembly may fit. Then your probably looking as between $30 and $50 and it would be an easy swap. Now of course the updated one would have to fit and it is 100% my guess on the cost. If you send it for repair then of course it is going to be more.

If I get time I will see if I can find your part. But to be honest if the updated truck will fit that is a better choice. 

A shoemaker repair job is possible however it may or may not last. Might be worth a try.

The plastic used in those gears doesn't take CA adhesive at all, it won't adhere to the material.

Thanks for the all responses I really appreciate it.

I have an update, but unfortunately I am not any further along with this; I called over to Charles Ro before visiting, it is $60/hour plus parts for a repair.

Now I bought this engine in 2014 for 269.99 (plus MA state tax). At those rates, it won't be long before I turn a $269 engine into a $400+ engine! 

So I'm stuck for now, I am afraid. Maybe I will see another LC+ RS3 being sold for parts sometime.

Thanks again everybody.