Losing Power On Layout

Bus Wiring Tutorial

After you double check the wiring, you might want to consider a bigger transformer.You might get away with it if your running conventional, but especially if you operating command control ,a CW80  is only good up to about a 5x5 loop,  additional loops, and larger layouts begin exceeding its capabilities. 

Rick I think that's where my problem is.. That is a started set transformer and its not getting enough juice to the inner loop. I guess I am going to go fourth and buy 2- 180 watt bricks to juice this layout up. I plan on going DCS in the future and the conventional is a thing of the past just about.

You might find out the problem is in a layout that size the train slows down because the track diameter is smaller and the engine slows because of this extra load. Also make sure you have a least one power drop per loop of track. Two would be better.

Ron

The CW can power miles of track - it's not the transformer, it's your power delivery.

Rob I am using a CW 80. I have 3 loops the width of the table which is 5x10. She dogs out by the time I get the the inner loop. Outer loop is fine and middle she starts getting sluggish.

That points to the difference in track diameter Bano7384. As long as you're powering just one train without a long string of lit passenger cars the CW80 will do fine. The wider the track radius is the easier it is on the engines motor. It takes  considerably more power to run a train on a small diameter loop than it does on a large diameter loop or straight track. Engines with cruise control can compensate for this but ones without just slow down.

Ron

I got all that.

 

Where is you transformer connection to the track?

Rob the transformer is hooked up to the outside loop. I am using atlas track if that makes a difference.

Move the Connection to the Center Loop and see what effect that changes. I think a compromise would be to move the connection to the middle loop if not proviing a connection to each loop.

 

Try it and let us know....

 I agree with all the above. Add a drop to each loop.

 

 I run on 180 Lionel Powerhouses and when in conventional tighter turns have a huge effect slowing down the engine.

 

I am not the biggest fan of the CW80 but it should have no problem running your setup 

"The two wires you attached to your track with your starter set work well for a 40 x 60″ oval – but as your runs get longer voltage drop over the distance and joints can cause poor performance as your train gets further from the power source. The solution to this is a simple wiring bus."

First of all, are you sure you are powering your layout with a CW-80? You said you are using a transformer that came with a "beginners kit" (starter set?) Many starter sets came with the look-alike but lower power "CW-30" or "CW-40" transformer/controllers.

 

In particular, in your earliest post (another thread) you stated that you had a set from 1994, which was prior to the introduction of the CW series, and another from the MTA Metro-North set, which according to my research came with a 30-watt "PowerMax" transformer.

 

Easiest way to tell: how many posts (the red/orange and black things to which you attach wires) are on the back of your CW-xx transformer? Your answer should be either 2 or 4.

 

It is very much in your interest to listen to ADCX Rob and respond clearly to his questions. He is trying to lead you through a useful diagnostic procedure from which you can learn a lot. He knows what he is talking about. (A couple of others who have responded do too, but not all.)

 

wolverine

It has only a positive and negative post. I thought it may have been a cw80 because I seem a picture of one. I may be wrong but I'm not home to tell.

That tells us something: you do not have a CW-80. (Many others have made this mistake in identification.) But it does not solve your problem. I think you should focus on the posts which are concerned with the number and placement of "feed" or "power drops" (wires) that you have running from your transformer to the track, and where they are placed. One standard recommendation is for one feed per every six sections of track.

 

Also, as at least one post suggests, the tighter the curves in your loop(s) the more power it will take to drag a train, particularly a long train, around the curves; BUT with the track that you are using, the innermost-loop has a wide enough radius of curvature so as not to be much of a problem in most cases. (If you tried to pull a dozen illuminated passenger cars you would likely run into a new set of problems. But the raw length of the track is not the problem: the ever-tightening curves could be in some circumstances.  The main problems are the lack of additional power feeds around your layout, and the underpowered CW-30. I bet a G-version CW-80 would work fine.

 

wolverine

 

So to sum it up should I buy a bigger transformer or watch the video on how to "bus" the layout? I plan on going dcs in the future if this helps giving me a final answer.

If you truly plan on going to DCS anytime soon, Buy Barry's DCS Companion book from the MTH website.

There is no greater amount of helpful and detailed info on how to set up and run a DCS layout anywhere.

 

For one thing, DCS does not like BUSS wiring, it can be done and compensated for but it will cause more work.

DCS likes Star wiring. Break your track into sections of 6 to 12 pieces of track by isolating the center rail at the points you choose for section ends.

Only put one power drop on each section of track and connecting in the middle of a section seems best.

Each power drop from the track runs back to a Terminal Strip, The strip is connected to the TIU output. 

This keeps the signal from overlapping itself on the track and turning into garbage.

This conveniently also distributes the power so you don't lose voltage over distance down the track.

Once you get a couple bricks, you can use 2 Input/Output Channels on the TIU and alternate them to sections of track, this spreads the load of a long lighted passenger train over the 2 bricks and TIU channels.

Feel free to email me if this is confusing and I'll walk you through it.

(I can only answer email evenings, I'm still a working stiff)

Just to let everyone who posted here know my current transformer is a lionel 40 watt transformer. So case solved.

Not really.

 

You would have the same problem with a 2000 watt transformer.

1. How have you determined that your transformer is a CW-40 PowerMaxPlus, rather than the CW-30 PowerMax that presumably came with the Metro-North set that you mentioned on another thread?

 

2. ADCX Rob is correct. Why do you not listen to him? The main problem is almost certainly the number and locations of the connections (connection, singular) between whatever transformer and the track. Others (PRR2818, Jeff Metz, Russell, and yours truly) have commented about this too.

 

There may be other "features" of your layout that need to be discussed too, but first things first. 

 

No offense, but IMHO you are making it unnecessarily difficult for this forum to assist you.

 

wolverine

 

Wolverine I was told to look under the transformer to determine the model. That's all I meant by case solved but I know that's not solving the problem.

Bano7384,

   I always recommend purchasing a KW or ZW transformer and wiring your layout correctly.  This eliminates small transformer problems from the beginning. 

Remember if you are going to run DCS to use Scott 10 Amp breakers in front of your

older type transformers to safe guard your DCS TIU. 

PCRR/Dave

 

 

At one time we used a CW-80 to power part of our FaSTrack layout, it was more trouble than it was worth, so we gave it away.  Replacing it with an old Lionel KW. 

In fact we now have 2 KW's along with the ZW's & Z4K, no power problems at all.

"Small" transformers can be perfectly adequate to power your trains if you eliminate excessive voltage drops to the track and in the track, as Rob pointed out. There seems to be a common misconception that a larger layout needs a larger transformer and it ain't necessarily so. Transformers should be sized for the trains that you intend to run. Don't expect a bigger transformer to make up for excessive voltage drop in your wiring or track.

Ace,

 If the tracks are right and the wiring is correct I will take the proven bigger transformer everytime, small entry level transformers are just that, and today most are built as throw aways.  Now I did see a little old 1033 Lionel Transformer that I almost picked up yesterday.  The old girl works perfectly and talk about time tested, but even this little transformer can only do so much, she has the black handle for the whistle and orange for the voltage incresase, and looks like brand new.  I would take this old 1033 over the newer CW-80 any time.  I believed the old 1033 was in fact a 90W transformer, but it was not built as a throw away.

The seller listed it at $40.00 and would give an additional 20% mark down also.

The used price on these old 1033 Lionel transformers varies greatly due to the condition of the old transformers, however in good shape they work very well, and have no problems like the CW-80.

PCRR/Dave

 

The 1033 has only a 4 amp continuous output, & no programmable accessory output like the CW.

 

The CW-80 has a 5 amp continuous output. 

Rob,

   I know you like the CW-80, the 1033 is 1 amp smaller than the CW-80 however

the old 1033 is a proven power supply, with very little or no problems down thru the years.   Also I see the lack of an accessory package as a plus, a transformer this limited in power should never be equipped with one.  Better that the transformer work correctly than have un-nessessary options.

PCRR/Dave

 

Well I "bussed" the layout. I added power to the center rail every 5 feet. It is working 100 times better. However I would like to invest in 2 nice transformers for dcs when I start running dcs rolling stock and the other for accessories.

Bano7384,

   Here is what I recommend to people who are just setting up a DCS layout.

If you want to save some money and still have the power needed to run your DCS

layout, look at a couple old ZW's or a couple old KW's.  You can pick up a 275W, ZW for about $125.00, they have 4 different channels, and will run your DCS layout perfectly.  The KW is 190W with 2 channels and accessory outlets, you can usually pick up a rebuilt KW for about $75.00, in fact I just purchased another KW for this exact price, at a train show here in the Pittsburgh, Pa area. Remember if you choose to engineer in this manner, you must put 10 Amp Breakers between the old transformers and the DCS, because the old transformers have slow blow breakers

which need to be up graded with more sensitive 10 Ampers.   Now I do like the MTH Z4K transformers, simply a fantastic big time power supply, that does everything, but they are expensive.  Even the used ones are over $300.00, the new ZW-L is even more expensive at about $599.00

Take Russells advise and purchase and read Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion, 2nd addition.  I further recommend the OGR DCS Video Guide, Rich Melvin does a great job on the visual education, of setting up a DCS layout, which most people find extremely useful. 

After watching the video and reading Barry's book come back and ask as many questions as needed for completing your layout.

 

PCRR/Dave

 

C'mon folks...READ WHAT HE SAID. The problem is not the transformer. The problem is ONE TRACK FEEDER for the entire layout! This is the problem.

 

Bano7384, ran additional track feeds to the middle and inner loop and his problem is solved.

 

As ACDX Rob said, he would still have had this same problem even if he was using a 2,000 watt transformer. That is because the transformer is NOT the problem. Your little CW40 will work fine as long as you are only running a single train.

 

Rich,

   Bano7384 also said he wanted to invest in 2 nice transformers for running a DCS,

hence my post as to transformers.

PCRR/Dave