Magnetraction on non-Lionel track, and compensating with weight?

Metal ties are to great a distance from the drivers to have any effect.  The rails should be steel... not stainless steel.   You can add steel wire (piano wire) to hollow steel rail to gain mass and increase the magnetic force.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Metal ties are to great a distance from the drivers to have any effect.  The rails should be steel... not stainless steel.   You can add steel wire (piano wire) to hollow steel rail to gain mass and increase the magnetic force.

I think he’s asking how much weight to add to locomotives, not how to enhance Magnetraction. While he specified GarGraves track, he also said “and others,” so if he considered using Atlas solid rail track he would need to add weight to the locomotives to increase traction.

Short answer: There is no formula. Just add weight to achieve the desired result. But keep in mind that if you add too much weight, you will stress the motor and mechanism.

My apologies for digressing to GarGraves tin-plated steel as an option.

@Jim R. posted:

I think he’s asking how much weight to add to locomotives, not how to enhance Magnetraction. While he specified GarGraves track, he also said “and others,” so if he considered using Atlas solid rail track he would need to add weight to the locomotives to increase traction.

He'd have to add more than weight to get any Magnetraction.

@Jim R. posted:

I think he’s asking how much weight to add to locomotives, not how to enhance Magnetraction. While he specified GarGraves track, he also said “and others,” so if he considered using Atlas solid rail track he would need to add weight to the locomotives to increase traction.

Thanks, Jim, that’s my question. I realize nobody reading may have run the experiment. It’s my 2% grade with a curve on GarGraves tinplate specifically in question. The difference between that and Lionel O gauge steel track is notable from experience (mine and others). Just curious. If four motors don’t lift 2 B units and 10 15” aluminum cars up the hill, we’ll be running the experiment here.

Hoping maybe someone else has played with the question. All part of the fun.

No science needed here, just use the sneak up approach. Take the shells off, as they bring no revelance to the table, and run the set up your grade. If they need added weight, add weights sparingly until they complete the task you want it to do. If you need to add the equivalent weight of a Chevy small block, chances are you’re gonna have to rethink your drink.

Pat

Why don’t you try running it first, that should answer your question.  I don’t think you’ll have any problem pulling that  train with those parameters.  You might not have as strong magnetraction but I don’t that is going to matter.  Give it a try.

@harmonyards posted:

No science needed here, just use the sneak up approach. Take the shells off, as they bring no revelance to the table, and run the set up your grade. If they need added weight, add weights sparingly until they complete the task you want it to do. If you need to add the equivalent weight of a Chevy small block, chances are you’re gonna have to rethink your drink.

Pat

Yes, well, results to be published in due course. In this heavily peer-reviewed journal, of course 😏 Thanks guys

Lionel added weight to some non-, Magnetraction engines.  The 2020 turbine is one example.  The pic is of my engine currently under restoration.

I believe the magnetism of the wheels can decrease over time if stored improperly. By improper I mean stored where the heat may well exceed room temperatures such as in an attic. The good news is it can be restored or increased by rubbing a strong powerful magnet over the wheels. There is a technique to doing this that you may have to research. I think you need to rub the magnet only in one direction.

I'm not sure how effective that would be, the magnetism is actually not in the wheels, it's the axles or an adjacent separate magnet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not sure how effective that would be, the magnetism is actually not in the wheels, it's the axles or an adjacent separate magnet.

Correct, and in the case of the diesels that are the subject matter, to re-magnetize them properly, you need to pull the wheels off to charge the axles.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

. If you need to add the equivalent weight of a Chevy small block, chances are you’re gonna have to rethink your drink.

Pat

I actually have a couple die cast 1/18 scale Chevy motors.  One is a 350 Small block, the other is a 429 Big block.  They weight about .35 and .5 lbs respectively, fully dressed (accessories, exhaust headers, etc..)

I should add them for weight in one of my old Lionel (1950's) diesels  

Don, I'm a little late to this party, here are my thoughts: (1) If a single powered unit struggles with the train, add a second powered unit.  If necessary, use a bigger transformer to handle 4 motors.  (2) Reduce friction in the consist.  Make sure the coach wheels spin reasonably freely.  Are the bronze ground wipers too tight?  A lot of friction comes from the pickup rollers.  You could remove the rollers from most of the cars and power the lights by rigging a tether that runs from car to car.  This mod goes hand-in-hand with upgrading to LED lighting, which would free up transformer power for the 4 motors.  (3) Some MPC-era F3s had rubber tires which definitely have more grip than Magne-Traction.  Personally I don't like rubber tires, but if you want to pull every time without wheelspin, find these late-70s parts or buy a set of Pennsy F3s and swap the truck blocks with your Magne-Traction ones.  (4) and I should have said this first... Make sure your rails and the locomotive wheels are scrupulously clean!  Good luck and let us know what you find!

Hi, Ted, thanks for the good list of suggestions. The 6-8480 UP powered units have both Magnetraction and traction tires, so I suspect 2 of them will do pretty well on Gargraves tinplate steel track. I’ll look for a chance to test a Magnetraction-only unit on that and Lionel steel O track re: question of how much weight to compensate.

cnwdon

Here are a couple OGR links on engine weight, magnetraction and Gargraves track.  The data is from CTT Oct 2004 article by Phil Hays titled "Testing 9 Types of Track” and is available on the Classic Toy Train web site.

https://ogrforum.com/...pes-of-track-article

https://ogrforum.com/...engine-pulling-power

Charlie

Charlie, thanks for those links.  Have been traveling, so delayed response.  Very helpful data.  Can use the GarGraves differential combined with existing loco weight to guesstimate compensatory weight if it's needed.