Marx 3/16" Litho Thread

I warned 'ya!

Now to start the questions!

Marx 333 steam engine:

I know were smoking versions, but did Marx ever offer an air whislte equipped 333?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Andre

To the best of my knowledge Marx never offered an air whistle equipped train.

Some sets though came with a "blow it yourself" train whistle made of metal. 

Andre: A very nice set to get restarted, as it were, in this unabashedly toy aspect of our hobby, and certainly not without its own special charm and appeal! Welcome back!

Thanks Rambler Don. No biggie... a smoke equipped one would be a "must" though.

Haven't decided if I would ever be interested in a set of 21's. The prices I see on eBay for them are kind of scary. At some of the prices I'm seeing for 21's, I'd rather put less money into a set of decent Lionel Erie cast frame FA's. (I also have an affection for select Lionel Postwar, and just might [re-]acquire some of my favorite pieces, too.)

Tinplate Art:

Thanks! I don't think I'll ever be as serious about the tinplate hobby as y'all are... but I readily agree that there's a certain simplistic charm about them, indeed. It's the charm that held kept piquing my interest all these years, and the input from the Marx guys that set the hook.

I carefully went through Rambler Don's videos and have compiled a list of "possible" cars of interest. I was surprised to learn there was more available than I first thought, though some would be hard to find, and expensive if I did find. So, we shall see.

As mentioned, my interests in Marx litho is quite narrow in scope: 3/16" cars w/8 wheel trucks (and engines for same) and there were less than 2 dozen that were ever produced. I'm not interested in the plastic line, nor "New Marx", only the postwar tinplate litho cars, and of those, only the "small truck" cars (not the high water trucks).

Next questions:

* How durable are the plastic scissors couplers? (Easily broken in transit/etc?)

* How dependable are the plastic ones? (Do they randomly uncouple themselves?)

Oh my, getting late. Big day at church tomorrow... need to get my butt off to bed.

Andre

Marx scissor couplers are fairly robust and I believe you can get reproduction replacements as needed. The worst part though is if the little tension spring is missing. Learning how to install those right the 1st time takes some times! They will fly across the room and never be seen again!

The 21 Santa Fe can be found for good deals. I got mine at train show for little money. I ever see a set move on Ebay for less from time to time. Patients is a virtue with them I think. They are nice though. One of only 2 diesels in my collection. 

The 3/16 line has many odd balls and expensive cars. You don't have to own it all. I'm not much a completists but I was so close to having it all I said why not.

RD:

Thanks for the input about the couplers. I shall no longer wring my hands over that concern.

As for the springs: Hopefully they won't be as bad as installing the knuckle springs into HO scale Kadee couplers. (Though I have that down to a bit of an art... but there's still that occasional "sproing!" moment!)

The 21: Well, when I first became aware of those back in my 3 rail days of the 1990s, I thought they were SO cool! They just reek of "Classic". I may/may not get one. We shall see.

The 3/16 line: I understand (and agree) on the "You don't have to own them all" sentiment. I've been going through and picking out cars that appeal to me. I'm seeing a pattern: The cars that come in more "railroady looking" colors are the ones that appeal to me. That is, colors that are "railroady looking" to me. That would mainly be the cars with base paint of black, gray, brown. Exception to this is the red UP "Challenger" boxcar, which I also think looks pretty cool. Oh, and of the tank cars, I like the silver ones best, though I do think the Cities Service car is nifty. (Cities Service gas stations were in KC as a lad.)

Frankly, I have no "outlet" for this stuff (no 3-rail layout) other than the simplistic oval that will come with the set. I've been "out" of 3-rail in any form for quite some time. So I have a "problem" in regards to enjoying anything I purchase in a running environment, so to speak.

More on that in a post to follow.

Andre

There are 21 (maybe 22...only seen one sale of possibly a factory test version of one car sell on the net, in four figures) of the "3/16" freight cars.  Before the internet auction, ATSF and especially PA. stock cars and LNE hoppers were difficult to find.  After,  not so. 

Andre

A friend of mine is a real railroad nut; he's written a book about local rail history, and his den/office is a library of photos, books, slides of mostly Northwest/Oregon stuff. Tremendous. He even has a GN caboose, sitting on a piece of track in his lot across the street; a great place to have an IPA...

He has zero interest in model trains...except, on display amongst all his "real" train items is the little Marx set he got as a kid...and I think it's the same as yours!  

Mark in Oregon

Marx 3/16's Litho, Lionel PW, and me: Where's this going?

So, it's the "morning after" my impulse purchase of the 25225 set. What now?

Where I'm at in model railroading:

I have a 100% functional partial dual level HO scale layout in a dedicated 20' x 16' out building.  It's primary theme is the Ozarks, circa 1964. The next phase of construction (WHEN I can actually quit enjoying operating and pack the trains into boxes!) will be the installation of the back drop boards, sealing/smoothing of same, and getting the basic sky blue painted on. Then will come the overhead lighting. I figure this will be a couple months or so.

I also have the benchwork in place for a small shelf layout in place here in this 12' 6" x 9' 6" computer room that I hope to eventually be making into an HO scale "Kansas City urban industrial" theme layout. (Which will be nice for those periods of "rain infested" days that we can have in my region during the wetter seasons.)

So what am I going to do with 3 rail stuff?

That's a very thought provoking question that deserves sincere thought on my part. Here's part of my thinking...

I've seen a pattern over the decades that I've been an HO scale model railroader, it goes something like this:

1. An HO modeler (or N modeler, or fine scale modeler in On3/etc) finally has an opportunity to build a nice layout, and so he does. Often times this is later in life toward retirement.

2. As the years roll by unawares, the layout reaches a state in which it begins to stagnate. Typically this is because the owner is either: A. Bored with it.  B. (And this is important), he's stayed with it past his diminishing dexterity abilities.

"A" can be easily addressed: Modify or fix the issues that have one stagnated and carry on for several more years.

"B" isn't so simple. IF one is in HO (or oh my gosh, little ol' N scale!) and the diminished dexterity is to the point that working on HO sized models is more frustrating than rewarding, then there's this scenario that most often plays out:

The layout continues to sit, gathering dust for years, as the owner has aged past his dexterity level, and thus no longer is active or enjoying this great hobby of model trains.

THIS (the above observation of mine in italics) has been in the back of my mind for some time.

I am very heavily leaning in the direction that I will continue with my HO until the point arrives that I no longer enjoy working with such small trains. Once that point is reached, and assuming I still have the other ambulatory abilities needed to make the changes, I hope to muster the courage to take the HO layout down, dispose of most of the HO equipment, and I will go back into the 20' x 16' with an ultra simple around the walls 3 rail "traditional" layout of some sort, and play with that until I can't play anymore. The sale of the HO stuff will finance the needed GarGraves track/etc for the "Last Hoorah" layout.

Thus, I may not have an immediate outlet of significance for any 3 rail, but amassing equipment over the next several years can serve as a safety net for my involvement in the hobby of miniature trains by forming the needed basis for a future "last stand" type of model train layout. Thus it would fall to a "traditional" sized 3 rail layout to be the layout that takes me to the end of my days here on this great planet Earth. Hey, as long as I can totter out to the train room, sit down in (and get up out of) a comfortably placed chair (or chairs), and still have the needed dexterity to place 3 rail trains on the rails, I can still enjoy seeing miniature trains running!

Yup, the above is some "heavy sh*t" that most of us don't want to think about, but these are thoughts that have been on my mind for a couple years now.

Andre

I didn't mean to knock this thread in the head with my life-planning quirk!   (I way over think EVERYTHING.  )

Bottom line is:

I'm going to allow myself to acquire some Marx and Lionel as my mood inclines and try not to beat myself up over spending some of my hobby allowance on Marx/Lionel PW stuff.

Back to some questions:

* Is buying junkers and salvaging about the only way to replace trucks on a good item that may be missing a wheelset or even a truck?

* Do any of you know anything about this type of Marx transformer? Looks rather interesting.

* Speaking of transformers, I suspect I'll eventually need to pick up one with more wattage than will be included in the set. I intend to acquire a bit more straight track so that the oval can be extended, and in addition, the transformer will be likely (eventually) be called upon to handle some of the Lionel engines w/Pulmor type motors. Suggestions for a Lionel pack to consider?

All fer now!

Andre

@laming posted:

I warned 'ya!

Now to start the questions!

Marx 333 steam engine:

I know were smoking versions, but did Marx ever offer an air whislte equipped 333?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Andre

The only sound tender Marx made was the gray plastic Santa Fe Sound of Power unit. Chuffing only, no whistle. For a steam whistle you need the Girard Station. For a Diesel horn, you needed the very attractive Oak Park, although it sounds more like someone stepping on a duck.

Steve

Andre

Next questions:

* How durable are the plastic scissors couplers? (Easily broken in transit/etc?)

These are actually pretty durable. Don't see broken ones a lot, but replacements are available.

* How dependable are the plastic ones? (Do they randomly uncouple themselves?)

They do come apart occasionally, but they can be fixed. The biggest issue is needing more spring tension. The spring can be roved, spread open more and reinstalled. The other issues is on well used ones. the retaining barb may be a bit rounded off. You can file the barb more square or replace the coupler. I've pulled a string of 10-12 autoloaders.

Steve

Steve:

Thanks.

I suspected there was no air whistle tenders in the Marx die-cast steam engines, but didn't know for sure.

Andre

@laming posted:

I didn't mean to knock this thread in the head with my life-planning quirk!   (I way over think EVERYTHING.  )

Bottom line is:

I'm going to allow myself to acquire some Marx and Lionel as my mood inclines and try not to beat myself up over spending some of my hobby allowance on Marx/Lionel PW stuff.

Back to some questions:

* Is buying junkers and salvaging about the only way to replace trucks on a good item that may be missing a wheelset or even a truck?

* Do any of you know anything about this type of Marx transformer? Looks rather interesting.

* Speaking of transformers, I suspect I'll eventually need to pick up one with more wattage than will be included in the set. I intend to acquire a bit more straight track so that the oval can be extended, and in addition, the transformer will be likely (eventually) be called upon to handle some of the Lionel engines w/Pulmor type motors. Suggestions for a Lionel pack to consider?

All fer now!

Andre

 

 

Replacement trucks and wheels are available, but way cheaper to get some junkers and salvage the trucks.

Those transformers are very cool looking and I've had good luck with them in the past. They were prewar and I especially like the reverse lever on top.

Steve

Thanks Steve, for your answers! (Looks like I missed your previous reply.)

Couplers/trucks:

Very likely over the coming months/years, stragglers will follow me home in multi item deals and I'll end up with less-than-perfect examples for a parts supply "bone yard", so to speak. I think I prefer the metal scissors to the plastic, but I won't be changing them out unless broke.

Transformer:

What's the number of that thing, anyway? Like you, I found it a very interesting transformer. The way the controls are laid out, it's almost like a miniature control stand!

All fer now.

Andre

@laming posted:

Thanks Steve, for your answers! (Looks like I missed your previous reply.)

Couplers/trucks:

Very likely over the coming months/years, stragglers will follow me home in multi item deals and I'll end up with less-than-perfect examples for a parts supply "bone yard", so to speak. I think I prefer the metal scissors to the plastic, but I won't be changing them out unless broke.

Transformer:

What's the number of that thing, anyway? Like you, I found it a very interesting transformer. The way the controls are laid out, it's almost like a miniature control stand!

All fer now.

Andre

That style transformer came as a 809, 50W, a 909, 45W and the best one is a 1409, 75W. 
I prefer the metal couplers also. You can bend the locking barb down just a tiny bit and they will almost never come apart.

Steve

Note at least some if not most twist couplers have a slot for using tab & slot couplers.  (metal ones I've not seen slots)

If you ever used the Kusan couplers, I say they were close in reliability. They don't equal lobster claws. They aren't hard to tune for a slow speed coupling, Little rearward effort is needed to twist them enough to snap in place if everything is ok.  Ive found they like an oval best. Within an S curve with a half straight between the curves (0-31), the lateral load can load up both ways, and the couplers "walk" in a way that can cause them to untwist if it happens to not slack off enough for the springs to reclose. Jerky slack and you might loose them.   The hand of god never had an easier job of it.  I'd not bother with the manual uncoupling stuff. By hand is prototypical.

I don't love them or hate them. Interesting more than impressive. I'm hapoy with tab and slot bobbers.

There are cast tenders for more serious pulling without a tin or plastic tender being such a stringline weak point. 

The blunt axle era has a lot more drag than other O. If you swaped to modern plastic, that might be the reason (more likely on lit passenger cars as each power shoe is a ton of drag vs a roller.)  

It's simple vanilla and you haven't had any in decades.

Enjoy it for what it is, and toss in some raw berrys once in a while to vary it.. 

Rawer builds fit in easy too

An alternative to the limited range of Marx 3/16ths O gauge motive power would be picking up prewar 3/16ths O gauge Gilbert American Flyer steam engines - they're perfectly sized to match the Marx cars, and you can choose from a Reading 4-4-2, B&O Royal Blue streamlined 4-6-2, a Pennsy K-5 Pacific as well as a kinda odd Pennsy 4-4-2 (the K-5 shell with a Pacific chassis sans the middle driver and much of the snazzy K-5 linkage), a NYC Hudson and baddest of them all the Union Pacific 4-8-4 they called a Challenger. You'll need a transition car with one Flyer harpoon coupler and one Marx scissor coupler and you're all set.

You'll discover that some cars are pricey - the flatcars, LNE hopper, and Pennsy stockcar immediately come to mind, but most can be found for not too outrageous prices. You can get coupler and wheel replacements from Robert Grossman:

http://www.trainpartsformarx.com/

Hey, thanks for that tip, MTN!

AF O scale stuff was no where near my tinplate radar screen.

Are these two AF examples from their 3/16" as you refer to?

(EDIT: The above #425 engine is NOT AF 3/16". That is a prewar, AF full-on O scale engine.)

If so, the second one definitely has the "look" I could find interest in. The first is um... well... "interesting", but not in the same way as the engine in the second pic.

Could be that I'm learning that about the only tinplate I truly find appealing is the Marx 3/16" line?

When it comes to tinplate, I'm still "finding myself", so to speak.

Andre

Why not just stick with Marx?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Why not just stick with Marx?

Greg

First off, that's some nice looking little engines, there Greg!

As for your question: Yup, I intend to have more Marx. I already "own" (not received) a 999 via that set I purchased (see pics in one my earlier posts), and I would like to eventually have a Marx 333 smoker. I wouldn't mind having a neat American Flyer die cast 3/16" engine as well. These engines would be the one's used to pull my little Marx 3/16" litho cars.

BUT...

Having said that, make no mistake: IF I'm going to indulge myself in 3 rail again, then for sure, I would like to re-acquire a Lionel 2065, 2055, 2056, 736, (and who knows what others?), some PW Alco FA's, and a whole wad of 6464's (genuine PW or reissue/new, don't care) and other assorted like-sized cars.

Hey... dreaming is free! It's acquiring those dreams that'll cost 'ya!

Andre

That American Flyer O gauge K-5 is an awesome model!

@Tinplate Art posted:

That American Flyer O gauge K-5 is an awesome model!

Which one is the K-5? Engine number 425 (the tinplate engine) or the 545 (the die cast engine)?

545  the 425 is NOT 3/16ths O gauge. it is prewar O and quite a bit larger.

OMG.

I did a few searches for AF 3/16" engines. Whoa, if what I'm seeing is the correct stuff... they made some really, REALLY, nice looking 3/16" engines (die-cast boiler/cab) and tenders (stamped metal).

HOWEVER...

I think I'm going to refrain from such. IF I'm going to put money into engines in addition to my budding Marx interest, I would rather it be Lionel premium steam engines.  The prices for most of the AF die-cast 3/16" engines is right up there with (or past) Lionel prices, and I doubt that AF's had smoke n' whistles.

HOWEVER 2...

But I'm digressing with this AF tangent. However, seeing as I started the thread... well... I reckon it won't hurt to talk about some AF among the way to learning more about Marx 3/16" litho rolling stock, no?

Y'all wanna' see some pics of some AF engines here in my Marx 3/16" thread?

Andre

@Rob English posted:

545  the 425 is NOT 3/16ths O gauge. it is prewar O and quite a bit larger.

 

THANKS!

I'm quite the newbie to this Marx and AF stuff... but I are getting smarter by the minute.

Think I'll run up there and edit my post containing that photo of the 425 and point that out for anyone that surfs this thread later in its life.

Andre

All:

Since the topic of AF 3/16" has been mentioned in this Marx 3/16" thread, for the sake of knowledge, which company pioneered the 3/16" concept?

Andre

@laming posted:

All:

Since the topic of AF 3/16" has been mentioned in this Marx 3/16" thread, for the sake of knowledge, which company pioneered the 3/16" concept?

Andre

None of the above. Probably Cleveland Models

Steve

Cleveland Models was the developer of S gauge 3/16ths scale trains. Gilbert was the first to produce ready to run trains in 3/16ths scale but they used O gauge/3 rail track.  The steam engines they made before WW2 were the 565 Reading Atlantic (diecast bengine/tin tender), the 545 Pennsy "Atlantic" (diecast engine with a tin tender), the 559 Royal Blue Pacific (diecast engine and tin tender), the 561 Pennsy K-5 (diecast engine and tender), 570 NYC Hudson (diecast engine and tender) and 572 Union Pacific "Challenger" (actually a Northern with a diecast engine and tender). I forgot to mention in my earlier  post that Flyer also made a Nickel Plate Road 0-8-0 (diecast engine and tender) numbered 574. The model numbers are for the most commonly found versions of those engines. No smoking versions of these were made but you could get chugging mechanisms in most of the tenders. All of those engines except the 545 Pennsy engine were converted to 2 rail S gauge after WW2.

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Why not just stick with Marx?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Those Marx engines are nice but the Flyer 3/16ths O gauge engines up the ante as far as being modeled after specific prototypes (especially the more expensive models which had detailed linkage.

I thought about going after 3/16 Flyer, the 4-8-4 and 0-8-0, to run with Marx 3/16, and ran into zincpest!  That and the pricing caused me to give the idea up.

 Actually there's more to it than that. The original name for the 7/8" gauge  was "CD" and not "S". This is because, as noted above, the gauge of 7/8" and the scale of 3/16" to the foot was introduced by the Cleveland Model and Supply Co. in 1937. They had an extensive ad campaign in Model Railroader for that year to introduce their new CD gauge and they even took the time to get NMRA standards approved for the scale. A.C. Gilbert liked the 3/16" scale and called his first efforts in this field "True Models". I do recall reading that Gilbert eventually chose the name "S" but I can't locate that reference.

Learning tons via this thread. Thanks to all that are sharing input.

Interesting, the origins of 3/16 models. Gilbert/AF S definitely went off on its own, complete with adapting a 2 rail standard.

I had no idea that the AF 3/16" on O gauged 3 rail engines went on to be repurposed for their 2 rail S line! They are indeed handsome engines, either 3 or 2 rail!

Colorado Hirailer:

Yes on the "Zinc Pest". My first exposure to American Flyer full sized 3 rail was many, MANY, years ago by a long time friend. It was a beautifully proportioned die-cast boiler engine that came with separate (not cast on) details for the piping and such. It was beautiful... until you saw the wheels. All of them were eaten up by the dreaded "Zinc Pest". I thought at the time "such a shame... a beautiful engine that's useless for operating".

And, also like you, the prices of AF 3/16" can be "startling". However, ALL prices for this older stuff is UP now... don't know the dynamics behind that. Typical timing on my part: "I know what I'll do. I think I'll get interested in something that is in an "up" swing so I can spend more dollars than I would have a year ago. Yeah, that's the ticket!" 

Moral of the story: Get in NOW and panic buy while they're more expensive! 

Andre

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

 

Failed to mention when you first posted the above pictures...

That picture of your 999 really shows the model at its best. That angle and your lighting really make it "burly" looking and quite handsome for what was in actuality a simple toy engine! Nice engine, good job on the photo!

Andre

Here's another version of the 3/16" Marx freight set.

If you want an air whistle, get a Marx 635 Mercury clockwork loco.

My favorite 3/16 are the NYC passenger cars (both grey and silver) ,

Western Pacific passenger coaches,

the astrodome passenger cars

and the 13549 livestock with open slats.

@Robert S. Butler posted:

Here's another version of the 3/16" Marx freight set.

 

And a dandy it is. I really like that brown PRR boxcar. (My set was the NYC Pacemaker option.) I suspect that my original set had a black "low side" gondola as opposed to the black hi-side that's in the set I purchased... but I just don't have distinct enough memories to know for sure. Curiously, in addition to recalling that my gondola was black, the other vivid memory of it were those white litho rivets. Those just really pop out, and strangely, really add to the overall "realism" impression these wonderful little models evoke in those of us with impressionistic minds.

Can't wait to get my set and start the clean up process.

Andre

Jim O'C:

Shooooosh!

Don't EVEN get me started on a passenger train set!!

Bad panda, bad, bad!

Andre