WARNING: Menards 4.0 Santa Fe Dummy Unit Review

@Bruce Brown,

Thanks for the heads up!

Glad I passed on this one. At the price of $120 plus shipping I just didn't see the value.

Wish I had read this before I powered up my beta 4 non-powered blue bonnet yesterday.  It just took a few seconds to jump, pop and puke on my desk.

Mine is out for delivery toady.

Why can't I cut the wires to the cap and insert a bridge rectifier?

Cut wires

Track feed to AC terminals of bridge rectifier cap

+ and - output of bridge to LED output side with cap across it

John

@Craftech posted:

Mine is out for delivery toady.

Why can't I cut the wires to the cap and insert a bridge rectifier?

Cut wires

Track feed to AC terminals of bridge rectifier cap

+ and - output of bridge to LED output side with cap across it

John

You can!

That is the way it should done. 

@Craftech  Good question.  It seems that either a bridge rectifier or a 1N4002 or similar diode with a 100V or higher voltage rating correctly wired in series (matching polarities) with the supplied 50Volt electrolytic cap would block reverse voltage to the cap and prevent this overheating issue.

@Bruce Brown The warning is appreciated. I think for the average non-electronics tinkerer, your solution makes sense.

Could you explain why the capacitor if properly protected with a rectifier would not help reduce LED flicker as the dummy travels around the tracks?

@Craftech posted:

Why can't I cut the wires to the cap and insert a bridge rectifier?

It is a bit more complicated than that. You will see when you open the unit.  If you just insert a bridge, you'll be charging the capacitor which will be connected to nothing! You must also cut the wires from the center rail pickup to the lights and re-route those to the capacitor.  A bridge wouldn't be necessary. A 1N4001 diode would suffice.

Bruce,

Thanks for your efforts here and to all.  I just received notice that my dummy arrived at the store level.  I think I'll wait a week to decide whether to bring it home or get a refund when I pick it up.  Not sure if I want to alter it to make it work.  I haven't had luck with doing much of that to any new electronics -- nor should I have to.  Not interested in risking a $90 investment to my own limited electronics experiences.

Mike

Got mine yesterday as I was leaving for work. Read all about this issue on the forum with the blue ones, the red ones have the exact problem as verified by @Bruce Brown. When I got home this morning from work I opened mine up and pulled the shell before doing anything else. Can verify bad install and no lube on the axles. Somebody at the factory needs a talking to.

Notice the QC sticker?

But definitely has an issue!

This discussion is very interesting, but I believe it would help many who bought the unit if an AGREED upon solution circuit diagram (before) and (after) were provided.   

There are many on this site who aren't an electronics whiz but can do the work - provided they are given a roadmap to follow.

Thanks for the heads up on this.  I have yet to operate my Beta 4 blue set yet and was planning on doing so tomorrow.  I will be sure to make some modifications to the dummy.  I may just take the pickup rollers off for now until I have more time for a more thorough fix. 

I just removed the capacitor, quick easy fix.

@Bruce Brown posted:

The problem is that a 220 uf electrolytic capacitor is internally wired across the center rail pickup to the outer rails. AC should never be applied directly to an electrolytic capacitor. Contrary to other web postings, this capacitor plays no role in illuminating the headlight, rear light or 2 front boards. Its wiring and usage is inexplicable. Without modification, this product is a hazard.

To modify, remove 4 black screws to take off the shell. Remove the two white ties near the capacitor and remove the capacitor by clipping the two wires. Use electrical tape to insulate the ends of the clipped wires. No further modification is necessary and all lights will still illuminate using an AC voltage. (The orange headboards will be a bit dim but that can be corrected at a later time by rewiring and adding a capacitor and diode to drive the headboards. The main goal now is to eliminate the safety hazard)

Purely for my own education (as I opted out of buying one of these sets or a B unit), I'd like to understand what the point of including a capacitor in this circuit is if not to prevent LED flicker. I've seen the video from the first YouTuber who discovered this issue and the screenshot below appears to show (a) that all the lights are LEDs and (b) that there is a lighting PCB at the front end in right front of the cab figures:

Presumably that's where the diode(s)/rectifier is for the purpose of powering the LEDs and the mistake is using a DC capacitor wired direct to AC track power? I can't trace the wiring from it to the PCB (if that's what it is) or understand the multiple frame wiring connections - but I am not an electrical engineer! If not everyone has this issue then I suppose it's another instance of the factory just using parts they had on hand in a bin.

Bruce - you should include the word “WARNING” in your title.

Does it flicker with merely the cap removed?

Thanks,

John

I don't know whether the capacitor feeds the lighting (I don't have any of these units), but if it was using a diode would likely if I remember my basic electric circuits, would reduce voltage and current to the output of the capacitor. When you use a single diode half of each cycle is "lost", since it blocks the reverse current. With a bridge rectifier you get full output as DC, since forward and reverse are passed. I would suspect if you use a diode that the lights would be dimmer, hence using a bridge rectifier.

@bigkid posted:

I don't know whether the capacitor feeds the lighting (I don't have any of these units), but if it was using a diode would likely if I remember my basic electric circuits, would reduce voltage and current to the output of the capacity. When you use a single diode half of each cycle is "lost", since it blocks the reverse current. With a bridge rectifier you get full output as DC, since forward and reverse are passed. I would suspect if you use a diode that the lights would be dimmer, hence using a bridge rectifier.

Its being reported on various FB pages the Capacitor was installed to remove the LD flickering. Unfortunately, the WRONG capacitor was used.

I just received my war bonnet dummy today!

@bigkid posted:

I don't know whether the capacitor feeds the lighting (I don't have any of these units), but if it was using a diode would likely if I remember my basic electric circuits, would reduce voltage and current to the output of the capacity. When you use a single diode half of each cycle is "lost", since it blocks the reverse current. With a bridge rectifier you get full output as DC, since forward and reverse are passed. I would suspect if you use a diode that the lights would be dimmer, hence using a bridge rectifier.

You are correct that a bridge rectifier captures the positive and negative halves of an AC sine wave and inverts one half of the sine wave and outputs pulsed DC.  A capacitor wired in parallel with the bridge output acts to smooth out the pulsing waveform into something more closely resembling pure DC.  The greater the capacitance in microFarads, the closer to flat the DC waveform will be.

Bridge rectifiers are simply a configuration of diodes arranged in a plastic package to take an AC input and create pulsing DC at their output.  Diodes and rectifiers both have a voltage drop across them.

Also, remember that LED's brightness is driven not by the voltage across them , but rather the current passing through them.

Either a bridge rectifier or a single rectifier diode will yield more than sufficient voltage derived from track power to drive multiple LEDs.

@Allegheny posted:

This discussion is very interesting, but I believe it would help many who bought the unit if an AGREED upon solution circuit diagram (before) and (after) were provided.   

Here is the before and after schematic for a rewired unit:

1. Remove black screws to take off shell

2. Locate wires to switch

3. Cut red wire to switch

4. Solder 1N4001 (or 1N400X) diode between red wires. White band on diode towards wire to switch.

5. Cut existing red wire to 220 uF capacitor.

6. Solder free end of capacitor (+ side) to diode white band.

7. Trim and tape connections

8. Place on track to test before putting the shell back on.

9. Good luck!

I am going to ask this ! why is it necessary  to even have a the lights and crew in a trailing cab unit?   I also dont recall any one installing the back up, head light on  their booster units 

Bruce thank you for the excellent presentation.  No wonder why the caps were cooking.

Your fix looks spot on to me.

@Bruce Brown posted:

Here is the before and after schematic for a rewired unit:

1. Remove black screws to take off shell

2. Locate wires to switch

3. Cut red wire to switch

4. Solder 1N4001 (or 1N400X) diode between red wires. White band on diode towards wire to switch.

5. Cut existing red wire to 220 uF capacitor.

6. Solder free end of capacitor (+ side) to diode white band.

7. Trim and tape connections

8. Place on track to test before putting the shell back on.

9. Good luck!

Bruce,

Thank you for taking the time to assemble this very detailed set of instructions to update the dummy unit properly.

I'm certain many on this site will benefit from it and owe you a debt of gratitude.

I do not own a unit, as I was late to the party.

I've found many discussions on the Forum to be very helpful, but lack the backup of photos and schematic's to help clarify their suggestions.

This is especially true of discussions that involve electronics.

I hope this is forwarded to Menards

Why Menards Mark has not responded is a mystery. This is a real safety issue and something modelers should not have to correct on their own.

Gunny

Let’s not forget. These are all purchased as beta testing units. They are not going to be perfect. Report back to Menards as necessary. I can’t imagine Mark responding back on this forum. If you like the unit as is then it seems like it’s a simple fix. Why should Menards give you your money back?

They gave you a built in "smoke unit" and people complain.

Same person running a ZW transformer, no breakers              screaming, "but the safety"........

Well guys, i had no idea that this was even a possibility until after I blew my unit up on a test run.  It’s a shame because I put it on the test track with the prototype (I bought the first release, the only time I ever felt like I was making an investment in this hobby) gave it minimal power and everything was fine.

Decided to put it on the big layout (conventional) and try it with string of box cars.  Second trip around, POP!  Smoke, lots of smoke.

I’m sure Menards will make it right, just kind of sucks that this wasn’t right the first time. I still love what Menards is trying to do for the hobby and will continue to support their efforts.  

will try to post videos but the language was a little salty after the explosion.

As far as “safety” let’s not cry wolf, if it pops it’s not the end of the world but 15V is not going to cook the world or burn the joint down.

Honestly sorry for joking.

The cold hard truth, this is a great post with technical details on how to fix the problem. For those that had it pop- you basically performed the "self delete" of the not required capacitor because you powered with AC track power- instead of the DC apparently the factory had assumed.

Either way, an easy fix to remove the now dead capacitor- again completely not needed, not required, and not doing anything when you got it other than failing the instant you applied AC.

You can use a new capacitor and diode to improve the circuit for better compatibility with AC track power.

Or again, just cut out the cap, insulate the wires, and enjoy the train.

That said, the forum never disappoints with all kinds of views on any topic.

Ordered my 100 pack of diodes today.  Do I need to buy 100 of these dummies now?  

Since I will be taking the unpowered unit apart, I will be taking the opportunity to use it as a test sample for what I want to do with my Beta 1 and Beta 4 powered units for partial repainting and detail upgrades.  First order of business will be painting the chassis dull silver or maybe just experimenting with a flat finish on it first. 

I miss the days of Radio Shack and being able to pick up electronic components in small quantities. 

I am of the mindset that these are test units and as such, my expectations are not high, and it is incumbent on me as the modeler to do work on them to make them into the models I see in my head. 

@romiller49 posted:

Let’s not forget. These are all purchased as beta testing units. They are not going to be perfect. Report back to Menards as necessary. I can’t imagine Mark responding back on this forum. If you like the unit as is then it seems like it’s a simple fix. Why should Menards give you your money back?

If something is defective people shouldn't have to fix it, beta unit or not. If they decide it is bad enough they don't want to deal with it, they should either get their money back or get another one. Actually, if people fix them they aren't doing Menards any kind of favor, having a unit to look over and figure out what was wrong is a huge help in fixing it.

We are paying Menards to be their Beta testers.  In other words, we are paying Menards for the privilege of doing their job.  They need to make this right and replace the defective units.

Teething problems. Hopefully no one injured and merely some inconvenience to return and get a refund. 

All this discussion of the capacitor being miswired leaves something else unanswered.

Are the wheels straight on the axles?  Are the wheels gauged properly?

That was one of the big problems with previous releases.

And what if grandma and grandpa buy one of these for little Johnny or little Barbara? John

@bigkid posted:

If something is defective people shouldn't have to fix it, beta unit or not. If they decide it is bad enough they don't want to deal with it, they should either get their money back or get another one. Actually, if people fix them they aren't doing Menards any kind of favor, having a unit to look over and figure out what was wrong is a huge help in fixing it.

I agree however, you are helping them by replying to them that the lighting circuit is incorrect. Isn’t that what beta is all about? They are not available on the open market yet but only offered as a beta sale. Since they don’t test the product how do they know it’s defective.

These dummy units are really light. Im gonna have to bring this up to N.M.R.A. tecommended weight of 5oz plus 1oz for each carbody length to prevent stringling esp on heavy trains with die cast cars.

@romiller49 posted:

I agree however, you are helping them by replying to them that the lighting circuit is incorrect. Isn’t that what beta is all about? They are not available on the open market yet but only offered as a beta sale. Since they don’t test the product how do they know it’s defective.

Beta is used all the time with software, and yes, the whole point is to let users test something. If a beta unit is defective the people should be told to return it and they will fix or or replace it. Beta is used with software all the time. Beta versions of things like Microsoft windows are free usually, and Beta testers when they report bugs will get a later version. If a beta version is really junky, the user will re-install the original version and then may re-install the beta when it is cleaned up.

If users are happy with fixing the beta unit, that is fine, but if they feel it is too defective to use, don't want to be bothered, then Menards either should fix the unit, replace it or give them back their money. Given these sold old, Menards can always sell it to someone else as reconditioned or something.

@RoyBoy posted:

All this discussion of the capacitor being miswired leaves something else unanswered.

Are the wheels straight on the axles?  Are the wheels gauged properly?

That was one of the big problems with previous releases.

most of the  beta responses (u tube ) have not mentioned the wheels on the 4.0, ( I have the 3.? issued last dec. and have had 0 issues ) The last 4.0 revue did not mention the capacitor bursting and smoking, so maybe the issue is isolated