Menards Beta 4.0 FP9 in Santa Fe Blue Bonnet

@Jack Petrof posted:

Just out of curiousity, what was the Menards list price?

199.00 for a AA set

@Jack Petrof posted:

Just out of curiousity, what was the Menards list price?

224.00 for 2 units, one non powered and one with dual motors, reverse, sound and remote

There is a "11%" rebate but thats not cash back but a rebate for future in store purchases. Since I am two states too far east from the nearest Menards, I cant count on the 11% rebate. Oh well.

@artfull dodger posted:

Just gonna say that if Menards doesn't get off the fence and just make the darn things in a regular production run, they are going to tick off more folks then they are pleasing.  How many darn beta tests do you need to make to get a final production version.  Come on Menards, you can do better than this.  If even the beta test versions are selling out in a few min, then wouldn't you think its past time to make a proper production run of these????   Just sayin!   AD

Maybe that's their sale gimmick.  It's a "Beta" version so it will be a collectible. <<< Sarcasm

Seriously I suspect they want to get it right but I do think it's dragging on a bit.  Hopefully the next release will be the production models.  I can't imagine with 4 or 5 series of Beta models they haven't received enough feedback to make a production run that is acceptable to the masses.  I expect within the next 4 mos. they'll release the production run under multiple road names. It would have been nice before Christmas to hit that group of consumers.

@OC Patrick and @Juna

Here's a link to sign up for new product announcements. If you are already signed up for other Menards emails, click "Edit Preferences" and make sure the " O Gauge Trains and Buildings" option is selected.

Thank you,
Mark the Menards Train Guy

Dag nabit, I missed the email some how.

Menards if you read this I know you are dead set against reissues but I wish you would reconsider.

You are leaving money on the table that is being picked up by eBay scalpers.

I would gladly pay for a set now, delivery whenever and I never preorder.

Food for thought.

Dang, at that price I would purchase a set in a heartbeat if they would offer an eastern or southern road. Just leave off the chrome, please!

@Menards posted:

@OC Patrick and @Juna

Here's a link to sign up for new product announcements. If you are already signed up for other Menards emails, click "Edit Preferences" and make sure the " O Gauge Trains and Buildings" option is selected.

Thank you,
Mark the Menards Train Guy

Thanks Mark, hopefully I won’t miss out next time

Incredible that this was sold out in just a few hours.

The sad part is if these are really Beta unit and they are being snapped up by people thinking they are going to be collectibles, it defeats the purpose of a beta since if people are buying them as collectible they won't run them. I saw an earlier beta (may have been 2.0) at York at one of the tables, guy wanted 350 for it, and it looked like it definitely had never been run. Not Menards fault, I just hope enough people bought these and are running them that they get real feedback. As to people buying these as collectors items, here is hoping galactic karma comes into play....

That really is a handsome set of engines.  I don't mind the chrome, it seems to be a closer match on these Blue Bonnets than the previous red War bonnet issues.

Love my 1.0 F7, just took it off the layout for the first time since I bought it. The blue/ silver on the new model is sharp.

If they are still in "beta" mode, how long will it be before full production?

How long do Lionel and MTH take to get a new model from plan to the shelves?

Bob

@MG Brown posted:

Incredible that this was sold out in just a few hours.

Not even! IDK when the first email was sent out but my e-mail arrived at 2:57pm and this thread already had a post it was sold out!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Not even! IDK when the first email was sent out but mine arried at 2:57pm and this thread already had a post it was sold out!

My email came yesterday at 2:20pm.  Have no idea whether it was sold out yet but I also didn't see anything on the forum at that time either.

I like the chrome on the frame and trucks, but I WANT the whole darn shell to be chrome plated as well, give it that polished stainless steel look.  Would also work well for CB&Q units.   I dont think Menards has the collectors market in mind, but they really need to quit messing around.  I can see the first couple beta runs as the "toe in the water" testing phase, but this is becoming a little idiotic.  They should have enough feed back, either directly from buyers or haunting these places.  From the first run, its been " we need better slow speed control" and "conventional transformer control"   

While conventional control would be nice, aren't these on par with LionChief locomotives, which also lack conventional control? They'll work on a conventional layout using the remote.

Assuming the Mendards locomotives lack cruise control, for better low speed control use a transformer and reduce the track voltage. It's not ideal, but this problem and solution is consistent with at least some LionChief locomotives.

In a sense what Menards is doing is like what Microsoft does with new windows OS, they have a bunch of beta sites and continuously update it for bug fixes and on feedback, then they release the finished product. One of the things I suspect is Menards is using the Betas to test out their supplier since I am assuming this is a totally new supply chain (and it is possible Menards may have changed suppliers). I am not a fan of extended betas, in theory it leads to a better product, but what often happens is you end up with something that with all the betas keeps introducing regression problems (Ie fix something, it is fixed, then introduce a new beta, that is now broken).  With software what this usually means to me is they are letting the marketplace do almost all their testing, and that has its problems.

I received the email at 11:21 AM PST and got my order confirmation at 11:51 PST.  I knew that these would sell out fast being a variation on the original paint schemes.

As for collectibles, I don't see how anyone would pay collectors prices for these on the aftermarket.  I know I would not purchase one second hand from my experience with the Beta 1 model.  My Beta 1 unit won't have much of any value after I am done modifying it.  However, I am wondering if the new remote will operate my original locomotive and perhaps solve some of the operational issues it had.

Menards appears to be interested in getting quick feedback on these as they offered expedited shipping at a very reasonable price.  Mine shipped today.  Perhaps this is anticipation of finally having a mass release for the holidays? 

After I have provided my feedback to Menards, I will post my findings here as well. 

My guess is there are sharpies out there who figure because the beta is limited, it will become valuable by the very nature of it being limited. It is kind of like, I guess, how prototype Lionel cars or one off or few variations become valuable. They figure in 5 years, 10 years, these betas will become so rare that collectors will pay any price ....like I said, hopefully that isn't true for a large percentage of the engines they sell, because otherwise as a beta it makes it useless. Some companies get around this by having a list of beta testers, who test it for free and agree to send it back to the manufacturer when they are done with it, in part because they don't want beta units out in the marketplace when they release the final product.

From a business perspective they have to be happy their inventory moved as fast as it did.

They seem to have a good thing going. Why change things now. If they keep Beta testing they sell out and refund or replace very few. If they put it in full production they will refund or replace a higher percentage.

@jlm posted:

I've lost interest. Couldn't buy the earlier ones because they were sold out before I even knew about them.  Happened to catch the email for the new 4.0 AA as it arrived and immediately clicked the shop button and.....already sold out in fewer minutes than fingers on one hand. I'm done. Out.  Not even going to open the next email. (No I'm not mad. Just done with this process).   --JohnM

I'm not interested in the item, but I do agree with your sentiments in such situations. Too much chasing of products. Removes the power of the consumer.

The new - and last, for now - Chrysler 300C was sold out in a day or two. I looked, thought a few hours, and it was gone.

Nope. Not gonna play. Companies used to have to chase us.

Mine was shipped out this morning.  I wish they'd go into regular production already, but it's good to see a new player in this space.  You can't beat the price point of any of the Menards products; I have a bunch of their buildings and rolling stock.  It's a good alternative to the extremely high end stuff from Lionel/3rd Rail.    I'm hopeful that somewhere down the line they can put out something that links to DCS or TMCC/Legacy. 

@Landsteiner posted:

So, still no conventional capabilities, I surmise?  Not a big deal for me as I'm pretty much 100% command, but for the silent majority who are conventional only, seems like a potential limitation, no?  No way to easily operate these nice locos on the same loop/track as your conventional locos.  Same limitation with LionChief, but all of Lionel's others locos are some version of command control and thus operate using fixed voltage on the track.  Ditto for MTH's PS3.

I am glad you mentioned that limitation. I am a conventional only guy. I thought about getting one when they finally go into full scale production. Going to have to pass if it won't run in conventional.

My PS3 SD9 runs fine in conventional. Sounds, smoke and control.

@bigkid posted:

The sad part is if these are really Beta unit and they are being snapped up by people thinking they are going to be collectibles, it defeats the purpose of a beta since if people are buying them as collectible they won't run them.

I would think if the beta testing wasn't working out for them, they wouldn't have continued after the first one.

@artfull dodger posted:

...I dont think Menards has the collectors market in mind, but they really need to quit messing around.  I can see the first couple beta runs as the "toe in the water" testing phase, but this is becoming a little idiotic.  They should have enough feed back, either directly from buyers or haunting these places.

@pbuff posted:

I wish they'd go into regular production already, but it's good to see a new player in this space.

@RSJB18 posted:

If they are still in "beta" mode, how long will it be before full production? How long do Lionel and MTH take to get a new model from plan to the shelves?

I think developing a brand new product like, with something as complex as a remotely controlled model locomotive with sound just takes a while.

You have to figure, when Lionel and MTH were developing there first locomotives with sound and command control, they had already been producing conventionally controlled locomotives for many years!

For Menards, this is a brand new thing for them. I'm guessing the company that is actually doing the manufacturing these overseas has some experience, but maybe not in O-gauge and maybe not with a remote control.

" Going to have to pass if it won't run in conventional."

Just to clarify for those unfamiliar with these locos.  You can use a conventional transformer as a power supply (just like LionChief locos) but the transformer will not control the loco.  You can use the enclosed remote (just like LionChief) to control the loco when you use a conventional transformer as a power supply.  Thus you will be able to use it if you don't mind using a remote, but you cannot use the transformer to access control of speed, direction, sounds, etc. and it would be tricky to operate both a conventional loco and a LionChief/Menard's loco simultaneously.

If they are selling all of these on a beta basis then they must not be listening. Reading through all the posts there are many that are asking for conventional ability to run also.

@MartyE posted:

Maybe that's their sale gimmick.  It's a "Beta" version so it will be a collectible. <<< Sarcasm

Seriously I suspect they want to get it right but I do think it's dragging on a bit.  Hopefully the next release will be the production models.  I can't imagine with 4 or 5 series of Beta models they haven't received enough feedback to make a production run that is acceptable to the masses.  I expect within the next 4 mos. they'll release the production run under multiple road names. It would have been nice before Christmas to hit that group of consumers.

Since it seems some folks here have every version it doesn't appear there are any out there for varied feed back from their other customers. 🤣 Had a version 2 (it had a few minor quirks of its own) which apparently corrected the stop on a dime issue in version 1. Then when version 3 came out almost immediately that ended the chase. Hopefully those who purchased this to run enjoy them and provide good feedback to Menards. Anyone know what Beta 3 fixed?

Had expected Menards would release something prior to Christmas, this blue is attractive. Maybe they are holding out on a prototypical paint scheme until the final revision is produced?

@romiller49 posted:

If they are selling all of these on a beta basis then they must not be listening. Reading through all the posts there are many that are asking for conventional ability to run also.

Curious, can any of the LionChief sets be operated conventionally? Or do they all require a dedicated remote when you by a set? (Am aware of the "Universal" one they sell as an add on.)

@BobbyD posted:

Curious, can any of the LionChief sets be operated conventionally? Or do they all require a dedicated remote when you by a set? (Am aware of the "Universal" one they sell as an add on.)

Lionchief is only remote control either via remote, universal remote, or newer ones with blueooth and thus app conrol over bluetooth. There is not a single Lionchief made with conventional control.

That's why they call it Lionchief Plus when you add the additional features- one of them being an option for conventional control.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Lionchief is only remote control either via remote, universal remote, or newer ones with blueooth and thus app conrol over bluetooth. There is not a single Lionchief made with conventional control.

That's why they call it Lionchief Plus when you add the additional features- one of them being an option for conventional control.

Are those the more expensive versions then?

Yes, more expensive for more features. Trainworld has this chart.

FWIW I sent an email to Menards customer service.

They assured me there will be another run of these.

I will resolve to watch me email closer.

I am thrilled to hear this.

I missed out on the Menards Sinclair tanker and they have said they will not reissue it.

If they made another Sinclair tanker of almost any sort I would gladly buy it.

Anywhoo here is the email in its entirety from Menards HQ

Hello,

I’m very sorry, these were several hundred test units that sold out in less than 2 hours.

There will be more in the future.

Thank you,

Ray

Everyone who missed out, like myself, take heart there should be more!

I would love a dummy A unit in Red but wont hold my breath.

If I can get the AA set in blue I will be a happy camper!

Sure, I would prefer of these were a generic version of "Lionchief Plus" meaning compatible with conventional.

I would even be happy if they sold a "conventional only" board you had to buy and install.

I suspect that will never happen and I will just have to deal with the remote.

At this price and quality level I will deal with the remote gladly.

I was lucky enough to get one of the first red Warbonnet beta units and I enjoy it greatly.

I don't know what improvements were made but I can live without them.

From the demographic here, not sure I understand the interest.  Not being a train snob, just the reality that these are locomotives for the non/hobbyist or Christmastime enthusiast.

Saw the same genius as others at York trying to sell one of these in the silver hall for 300 or 350.  Kept walking, but to be fair not interested at the original price.  If my kids were very young again, would start them with used postwar Lionel F3s.  Widely available, not super expensive if well run, and indestructible.

For Menards, I give them the benefit of the doubt on the betas.  Lionel and MTH have had plenty of time to get locomotives right and still have problems.  During Lionel’s really problematic run a few years ago, I suspect the issue they had was getting the suppliers to be up to snuff, or finding new suppliers.  Lionel and MTH don’t want people reading the complaints that get posted here.  And they don’t want unhappy customers.  Nobody wins in that situation.

As a big box store, Menards, like other big retailers, is probably pretty strict about what they put on the shelves.  These big stores have much more developed policies and controls about the number of returns they want to accept - they will accept them but if the product is a problem it will get jettisoned - because so much of the business consists of people coming to buy a product they need and then also seeing something they want and buying that too.  (One of the reasons I tell my wife to stay out of Home Depot and Target!!!). **** the customer off with non operable merchandise and they don’t come to the store - you lose those opportunities.  Stated differently, the average big box store and its customer will not tolerate or rationalize some of the problems that have been reported here on the forum with other brands.

Being that trains are a bit of a niche product, and relatively complex, I am guessing Menards wants to make sure they have the product and the supplier on target before they build them in a large run.  I think they are the size they are because they know what they are doing and I think they are smart and prudent.

I want them to get this 100 percent right because this product will, if successful, have the ability to reintroduce electric O gauge trains to the mainstream in a manner not seen since the 1950s.  Such a great hobby for families, and very few people know about it - look at that WSJ article about it from a few years ago - mentioned us all “trundling” along.

Here is to hoping Menards gets it perfect and has great success.  Have a terrific weekend everyone!

I find it interesting, that all the experts here, while busy second-guessing Menards beta testing program, failed to notice the added details on the A unit bodies!    This should answer the question of whether these will be FP7's or 9's.   Not that many here know the deference, but there are some. and it matters.   I for one am looking forward to the Beta responder's comments, on the drive train and any improvements to the sound and speed control... PS FP7/9s used regular B units in their lash ups. Kudos to Menards for a new product. not a rehashed existing one.

I bought the version 3 beta as a fun $150 novelty engine. I’m glad I did and it works great. I have been making some enhancements to make it look better. I don’t think there is any collector value tbh.

The fact that it comes with it’s own remote tells me this is designed for xmas tree running not for serious hobbyist. Maybe down the road that will change.

Since they made a dummy A unit maybe they’ll make a separate sale red one?

Any of the Menards line is in the line of traditional Lionel, for ppl who like traditional looking toy trains, I doubt Menards has any thought of competing in the scale market.

As far as collectability goes, Menards buildings are sort of like that. Because there make relatively short runs of them, buildings tend to sell much higher than original price ( go to train shows) . That I suspect is a short term effect.

W the beta engines bc they make relatively few of them, the idea is scarcity will make them valuable. Ever see what Lionel post war prototypes and rare variations go for? Charley hustle sees ',limited run' and sees $$$$$.   The fact that they sold out so quickly makes me wonder how many were bought by ppl eager to run them&how many were ppl 'gettting in on a good thing'. Kind of reminds me of rock concerts that would sell out in 5 minutes, supposedly by fans, then you would see a massive amount of tickets available in 3rd market 5 minutes later.

It was just too fast to be driven by demand to run a new toy like engine.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

I bought the version 3 beta as a fun $150 novelty engine. I’m glad I did and it works great. I have been making some enhancements to make it look better. I don’t think there is any collector value tbh.

Maybe not "collector value," but the first one for sale on eBay popped up yesterday.  Buy it now price of $499

@jlm posted:

I've lost interest. Couldn't buy the earlier ones because they were sold out before I even knew about them.  Happened to catch the email for the new 4.0 AA as it arrived and immediately clicked the shop button and..... already sold out in fewer minutes than fingers on one hand. I'm done. Out.  Not even going to open the next email. (No, I'm not mad. Just done with this process).   --JohnM

I'm with you, maybe sour grapes but the process sucks, just my opinion. As soon as I get the information that they're available they're sold out. And sadly, mostly to complainers and money hungry eBay sellers. I'm happy for the few people who will get one to keep but I'll stick with companies that make enough for everyone.

@jrose609 posted:

Maybe not "collector value," but the first one for sale on eBay popped up yesterday.  Buy it now price of $499

This is where ebay needs a block seller feature.

Hey you never know what can take off though.