Metro-North hits car in Valhalla. 6 dead.

I think I know where you're talking about. That's possibly one of the worst places you could ever get hung up on a grade crossing as it's one of the busiest RR tracks in the country. Heck, I saw three coal trains going the same direction at the depot there, like they were racing each other as they were lined up at the head ends. Darndest thing I ever saw on a normal main line.

My wife and I did a Grand Canyon trip 2008 (rode steam on the GC Ry, each way and stayed overnight at the El Tovar, with a private balcony overlooking the depot) and wound up at a hotel along old route 66 just up the Transcon from the old depot for a few days afterward, doing day trips to stuff in the area. This was right before they quit signalling at the grade crossing a quarter mile away. My wife hated the hotel for the noise, I had no problem and slept like a baby every night.

That's how it is. People like to talk a good game about empathy, until that is it inconveniences them.

There was someone a few years ago threatening to jump off a bridge on I-5 in downtown Seattle. In a comically PC-oriented part of the country, dozens of drivers yelled at the person to jump, because he/she (don't recall which) snarled a commute that is one of the worst in the country on a good day.

I remember soon after 9/11, I read of someone griping about being stranded in an airport during the grounded flight times, while sitting right next to someone who had just been told a family member had died in the attacks. How the second person didn't backhand the first one is a mystery to me.

Regardless of how "tough" something is, fire is fire and can inflict severe damage. Again, if you look at the photos, that MU absorbed a lot of punishment yet provided protection enough to its passengers and crew to prevent the number of casualties from being much higher...that's pretty tough if you ask me.

Remember, the third rail being torn loose and piercing the train is a key component here. In terms of a diesel locomotive "only being harmed by maybe a dump truck full of rocks" as you put it, imagine the fuel tank of said locomotive being pierced by a third rail getting torn loose by whatever it hit at high speed....not something I care to think about.

For now, I'll continue to keep those affected by this tragedy in my prayers and let the investigators do their work.

Bob    

I see now it didn't derail just burned.  

I was listening to the radio tonight on the way home from the bus station, and they had a guy who was former NTSB who did a lot of consulting work with the train industry these days. He said this one was a puzzler, that he can't understand how the car got caught on the tracks like that, that she would have had time to get the car out of there at the very least, that the min time on those gates is 20 seconds before the train gets there (which others have said), could be even more. He think she probably panicked about the car being damaged potentially (probably thinking her husband would throw a fit I would guess....), and was focused on that, not getting out of there. To be honest, I would probably have backed up and it broke the crossing gate, so be it, or I would try to squeeze between the bars or something. The one account I read said when she got out she checked the car, then tried waving her arms to get the train to stop, then got back in and drove forward to her death.....It sounds to me like she may have been caught by the gates because of traffic, there was an accident on the Taconic, and people were driving the local roads, and it is possible traffic was backed up to the crossing from the highway traffic, she felt trapped and panicked, rather than being someone who tried to jump the gates. I know people are upset and angry but in this case it sounds like the poor woman was in a bad situation and panicked, rather than being someone trying to save a couple of minutes of time.

HeRe is a Minute- by Minute reconstruction of what happened:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/...traincrash/22889015/

And here are other accounts: 

http://www.lohud.com/story/new...casualties/22822737/

http://news.yahoo.com/commuter...metro-004819790.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/of...y-metro-north-train/

Co-worker is thanking his lucky stars - he was in the first car on that train, but left the train at his usual stop of White Plains, a couple stations before the crash.

Thoughts for the families of those killed or hurt.

David

Wow, just glad I am not Rick Hope.  That's got to be hard.

The more I read articles, review still images, and watch video related to this terrible event, the more it seems this was one terrible accident that was perhaps not so much a result of "silly neglect" as much as potential confusion compounded by panic.

Of course, the real wild-card here is what chain of events led the SUV driver to be on/near the tracks when the gates came down?  Were there flashing lights that she ignored to get onto the tracks?  Or was traffic slightly backed up so that she just happened to get caught between the crossing gates when the flashing lights started and the gates came down?

Looking at the aerial photos and charts, there doesn't appear to be much distance between the railroad crossing and the main highway.  And a video by the NTSB talks about a traffic signal "intervention feature" that's tied into the railroad crossing signals which would allow cars between the crossing and the main highway to vacate that area. 

But I'm thinking... Oh my gosh, if somebody happens to be "between the gates" for whatever reason and see's that traffic light going green so cars can exit the stretch of road between the railroad crossing and the Taconic Pkwy, somebody who's in a state of panic might interpret that green as safe to move forward -- especially in the dark of night.  And the angle of the road vs. the RR tracks doesn't favor the driver's view in the direction she was driving.  In fact, it appears there's a building to the right of the gates that would have been blocking a drivers view of trains approaching from the right-hand side of the railroad crossing.

Without knowing any first-hand information about the area or what actually happened... and just viewing and listing to what's been reported/posted, we can't help but pour our hearts out to the families involved -- especially those who lost loved ones or victims who were injured in the mishap as well as anybody who witnessed the impact first-hand.  That's gotta leave a terrible impression in anyone's mind.

Lots of photos focused on close-ups of where the lead train car and the SUV came to rest.  But one of the photos that really made me shudder was the aerial image showing the entire 8-car train length, which was essentially the nearly 1,000' that the SUV was pushed after the impact at the crossing.  The scale of the SUV's size vs. that length of train really got to me.  There's no way anybody in the SUV could have survived that impact -- not to mention the resulting fireball when the SUV's gas tank exploded.

I didn't see too many images of the gates and the railroad crossing itself, but the one or two I saw give the impression that there's really not that much room between a downed gate and the railroad tracks.  So even if the gate dropping hit the rear portion of the SUV, the front of the SUV may not have been completely clear of the railroad crossing.  Why the driver even got out of the SUV to check the gate hitting the rear of her car is puzzling given the urgency of time.  OTOH, due to the angle of the road crossing the tracks, it actually looks like there would have been MORE room on the other side of the tracks between the downed gates in the direction the SUV was traveling.  And in a moment of confusion/panic, the SUV's driver might have wrongly thought it was safer to get to that part of the road (instead of backing up the SUV and breaking the gate).   But combine an ill-fated decision with a train fast approaching from the driver's blind side in the dark of night, and there's your tragedy in the making.  Absolutely terrible.

Still a lot of unknowns, and a lot of pieces to assemble.  Unfortunately, we'll never know what the SUV driver was really thinking.  But how can we NOT be moved by the almost sheer randomness of such events leading to permanent life-changes for so many involved.  Be it one of the six fatalities, or one of the innocent injured parties on the train still recovering in the hospital, a survivor riding the train who might have just been a bit shaken, an eye witness to the impact itself, a first-responder helping the injured amidst unthinkable sights, or even a person who missed the train that day and would have normally been sitting in the burnt-out train car that collided with the SUV, the effects of this tragedy are far-reaching to many people.  My thoughts and prayers go out to all of them and their families/friends.  How can you not take a moment and think about them?

David

Having lost my favorite uncle at 12 to a train in Vermillion Ohio, near the old Big Wheel store, please, nobody should take my angry statements about stupidity as not caring.

It makes me more angry than sad.

If the vehicle cannot travel past the crossing non-stop, in shouldn't be entered.

Blow your horns at me, I don't care! That's how it is done!!!

Oh there used to be a stoplight in Toledo Oh., 6 minutes. You will get a ticket.

Adriatic,

On the way to my brother's wedding reception in Vermillion in 1983, I watched as the organist driving in the car just ahead of us was almost creamed by a Norfolk & Western hot-shot coming around a curve onto an unguarded crossing (cross-bucks).  I was just learning how to drive, and that experience was a good one for me!

Jon

David:

35 years ago I witnessed a woman killed by a Missouri Pacific freight train just east of Houston.  I was riding to work with a co-worker when we were passed by a Dodge Colt at a very high rate of speed.  The highway ran at a bit of an angle as it approached the MP tracks however, there was a clear field of view from the highway to the tracks.  We could see the train coming and, I've always guessed she could too and simply thought she could beat it.  The west bound train hit her square on the drivers side and shoved the car for about 50 yards before it began to roll like a beach ball.  The car came to rest on its roof about 150 yards west of the crossing.  We were the first car to the crossing and, being on the passenger side, I jumped out and ran along the tracks toward her car.  As I ran, I passed school papers and books strewn along the ground and was scared to death I'd find kids in the car.  When I arrived at the vehicle, the driver's body was mangled and I immediately assumed she was dead (she was).  Fortunately, there were no kids in the car and I later found out she was a school teacher who was late for work.

Apropo of your comment about witnesses to a crossing accident, while I don't think about seeing this as much as I used to, every time I see or read about a crossing accident in the news, I can immediately remember the accident I witnessed like it was yesterday.

Curt

quote:

 Be it one of the six fatalities, or one of the innocent injured parties on the train still recovering in the hospital, a survivor riding the train who might have just been a bit shaken, an eye witness to the impact itself, a first-responder helping the injured amidst unthinkable sights, or even a person who missed the train that day and would have normally been sitting in the burnt-out train car that collided with the SUV, the effects of this tragedy are far-reaching to many people.  My thoughts and prayers go out to all of them and their families/friends.  How can you not take a moment and think about them?

A family member was a heavy equipment Tow Truck operator for a short while. I was glad he got out of it before he had to deal with any wrecks with fatalities or serious injuries.

My sympathies go out to the families of the 5 innocent men who died as a result of this woman's stupidity.  I spent 40 years on the rod driving many miles in many conditions and witnessed accidents, some fatal and had too many close calls.  Driving is a full time occupation, something that is lost in today's world. Be careful out there.

As he knew that traffic light was malfunctioning it should have been immediately reported and a police car either stationed there or sent to have the signal turned into a all stop intersection. No excuse for anything else.

Can't argue with what he should have done Lima but, as my Pennsylvania State Policeman uncle used to advise me, better to shut up and say thank you than push the issue. 

Curt

Jon, were you from Vermillion? A big family name there, but everyone seemed to know Becky Brown, his daughter. About your age, or a year, or two older. 

Good rail-fan area. My Aunt lived by the sled hill, above the hillside marina, near the high school, Ive forgotten the names. 

Why do people post comments like this?    While we can certainly appreciate the sentiments of sympathies, I think the comment regarding the "woman's stupidity" is COMPLETELY inappropriate.   I'm sorry, but after all I wrote in my post above, I just don't understand how some folks can still post comments like this. 

Just pray that you never find yourself in a situation where you're inadvertently and unexpectedly challenged to make a quick decision that could change your life and the lives of others permanently.  The driver of the SUV was also a mother of 3 children who are now left with the daunting task of adjusting to life without their Mom.  So this is a tragedy on many fronts.  We're all gonna be where we're gonna be when the Man upstairs decides we're ready for life's next chapter.  More often than not, we just can't even begin to imagine what that circumstance is gonna look like... or when it will be.  Some folks exit this world without a sound in the middle of the night during sleep.  Others exit as the result of a terrible tragedy.   Last I checked, we don't get a vote.

Think about it... call it "poor judgement" in this case if you must comment at this point.  But calling it "stupidity" without knowing all of the facts is inappropriate and disrespectful.  Enough said.

David   

My sister-in-law hails from there.  Her dad was a pastor, so they moved around quite a bit though.  Nice area!  And LOT'S OF TRAINS!

Jon

I've often thought about this...we're so conditioned when it comes to "gates." When gates come down, whether at the railroad crossing or at the entrance to the parking structure at work, our instinct is to never drive through them. This instinct may be so strong as to make some people helpless in the situation where they actually need to crash through the gate. Maybe that happened here.

Originally before I heard any of the facts, I assumed it was someone trying to outrun the gates because they didn't want to wait. From what I can tell, from the latest reports I have read, it sounds like she may have been trapped under the gates because of traffic ahead of her (apparently there was a lot of traffic diverting to local streets), and when it came down she apparently panicked, and instead of trying to back up, she drove forward.

My take on it, for what it's worth, is that the arm came down on the car and she panicked (given she was driving an expensive SUV, even moreso), probably thinking "my husband will kill me" or some such, got out to check it, then panicked realizing the train was coming on top of that (and quite frankly, given the way many men are when wives get into accidents,how they react so crazily, not surprised it would panic her). 

I think it was a tragic accident where multiple factors compounded into a serious error in judgement, one that is quite human. If this was some idiot racing a crossing gate because he/she was too important to stop, if it was someone who thought it was fun to race trains, I would join in they were stupid, but I think in this case it was simply a human being making an all too human mistake.

My thoughts and prayers are with the woman and her family as well as the others who died and their families, and they also go out to the engineer, who did everything he could, but still probably feels a lot of pain and guilt over what happened.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Once the man behind her had his say and clearly described- with very good detail- what she said and did, at that point, the word became valid.

When determining civil liability in auto accidents, you often use the 'reasonable driver' standard, which is a general assumption of what a normal, reasonable driver would be expected to do in a given situation.

So, let's go there. A driver comes up on a busy metro line RR grade crossing, one that said driver probably knew well enough to know it was a busy and high-speed line. The RR signal goes off, barriers come down behind the vehicle. A reasonable driver, I'd argue, would be extected to get the heck out of the situation ASAP. The reasonable driver would not be expected to get out, look (when at least one other driver is yelling to get away NOW) and then drive forward toward the tracks.

No, the word fits quite well.

Based on my experience on the road I stand by my statement. In Ohio, I saw a man crushed to death in the cab of his work truck because a STUPID woman stopped on the Interstate to pick up a sack of potatoes.  Then she got in her old clapped out station wagon and drove away. Nuff said.  The wreck a very traumatic and unfortunate.

Lee,

I agree 100%.

Same here!

Have four uncle policemen, was told never argue with the man!

Gotta pay for them donuts somehow!

I'll vote both ways here. I do believe that it started with poor judgment that turned to confusion and panic with a terrible result. Growing up I always knew my dad had a younger brother who was killed in a train accident before I was born. To this day he won't talk about it. The last time I asked he shook his head and said "stupid, no reason for that truck to be on those tracks". I'll never ask again.

Today I sent a email to the National Transportation Safety Board informing them that all of the other railroad lines in Westchester County, NY had their grade crossing eliminated when they were electrified either by putting the rail lines on an embankment or in a cut. The New Haven Line all the way to New Haven, CT. The Hudson Line all the way to Croton, and the lower Harlem Line to North White Plains. When the Harlem Line was electrified from North White Plains to Southeast in Putnam County over 30 years ago why weren't the grade crossings eliminated then? There are simply too many vehicles crossing the 40 grade crossings on this line and with the trains traveling at up to 85 MPH this improvement should be looked at as a life savor. There are on average 10 grade crossing collisions each day in the U.S. While most are the fault of the drivers on the road, look at all of the people who get killed just because they were in the right place but at the wrong time.

This was truly tragic for everyone involved.  I know that red light cameras at city traffic intersections is a sore subject in this country, but I wonder if they were placed at RR crossings with a very visible warning to drivers that they will receive a very stiff fine if caught going thru the flashing lights or gate would cause drivers to stop and think that maybe it would be better to wait a few minutes at the crossing for the train to pass instead of spending a couple of hours in a court room and and walking out with a  thinner pocket book.  I once attended a crossing accident investigation class which involved riding in the lead engine of a lashup and was completed amazed at the number of drivers and joggers crossing the tracks while our engines were approaching.

Just my 2 cents.....

I certainly see enough stupid drivers but this does not appear to be a case of "stupidity".

From what we are told there was no train and no lights flashing when she proceeded across the crossing.  Gates were up.

I certainly don't know enough about physical characteristics of the crossing area or the traffic flow in front of her as to make a judgment but it is certainly worth questioning as to whether the traffic that was flowing when she started across stopped for an extended period of time.

If traffic was flowing before she crossed she would have no reason to suspect she was going to get stopped on the crossing.  She expected the traffic to stop and go and didn't expect to get stopped on the tracks (which were at that time clear).

If traffic was congested and stopping for extended periods of time before she crossed; she judged it wrong and she made a tragic mistake getting stuck on the tracks.   

I can certainly empathize for the mistake made, having seen plenty of people stopped on the tracks when they start across and all of a sudden the traffic flow stops for a light many cars in front of them.  I go out of my way to make sure that I don't get caught in the gauge when I'm approaching a crossing in stop and go traffic and traffic on the other side is stacked up and I don't have room to fit. 

With that said,  It's pretty safe to say that many of our wives (or daughters OR even sons) would not be as "cool as a cuke" if they were "boxed in" and a train was bearing down on them at 60.

Once again, I am not justifying the lady's actions, simply trying to look at it through the eyes of someone who may not be as "train savvy" as we are.

Prayers for her and the families that lost lives that they may find peace. 

It sure looks like the root cause is the fact that she did not have a clear path from the point where the gate is before the tracks to the other side of the crossing.  The rule is if you can't go from where the gate goes down ALL THE WAY to the other side without stopping, you DO NOT move past the gate.  THAT was the problem.  After that very poor decision, the rest is just the result of being in a panic situation when the gate dropped on the rear of the car. 

I've witnessed a very similar situation about 5 or 10 years ago in my hometown:  A car stopped before crossing the tracks, but AFTER the crossing gate, due to traffic on the other side of the tracks.  Good that they did not stop ON the tracks, but still way to close to the tracks.  They should never have gone past the gate until it was clear enough to get ALL the way past the crossing.  Fortunately, no train was around, as this could have set-up a panic situation when judgement becomes very clouded, possibly resulting in injury or death.  At the least, it would result in the train crew being VERY nervous.

I still suspect that when she looked ahead before crossing the traffic in front of her was still moving or stop-and-go.   She started and then it stopped causing her to foul the crossing. 

In my neck of the woods there is a busy commuter rail crossing that has a traffic light at an intersection several hundred feet before it and another one at an intersection several hundred feet after it.  It is a VERY busy 4-lane highway and the crossing and the intersections were recently upgraded.

Both lights are synchronized to the approach of a train as to ensure that no one is caught between the last green and the railroad crossing and the possible red signal at the next intersection. 

This may have very well prevented the situation at hand from occurring, especially since the MN and the Taconic were built long ago when heavy traffic volumes like this simply didn't exist.

Just like in motorcycling, we weren't there but we can take away something to improve ourselves from it.

One recommendation that should be adopted is that at crossings with a third rail, the third rail should have one of more "shear points", with bolts that would shear in the event the rail is picked up. I can't believe the way that rail speared the first two cars. A real nightmare.

In one community on the New Jersey Light rail line I know the rail bells are continually de-activated by  residents breaking the part that hits the gong because they don't like the bells.

I believe that there have been numerous instances that people have attempted to beat a RR crossing signal. I’m sure everyone here would agree, that would be a STUPID decision.  
We all agree that this was a terrible accident that shouldn't have happened. The SUV being in that situation, may have been a case of bad judgment, bad luck, or a little of both. The third rail slicing through the train, an unfortunate, freaky occurrence.

If you did not witness the incident in question, you really have no right to imply the woman was stupid. I have not read or heard any indication that Ellen Brody, the woman driving the SUV, was an irresponsible, irrational, selfish person. I’ve read quotes stating , “She wasn’t reckless”, “She was level-headed”, “She was a real sweet person, salt of the earth”, “She was funny and an amazing mom”, and the list goes on. 

She was clearly a smart person who was placed in an unfortunate situation. I’m almost certain she had little understanding of the seriousness of her situation. Probably a little scared and confused, she made a mistake…a very human mistake. We have all made mistakes, and if you’re fortunate enough to be reading this, you haven’t paid the ultimate price…yet. Hopefully you never will. If anyone here has never made a mistake, you’re either very lucky, or just not human!

We all have the right to our opinion, but until all the facts are known and published, I doubt anyone here has the right to pass judgment. I’m sure that some of you will not agree with my view, that is your right, but I hope most of you will. 

My heart and sympathies go out to her children, husband, family and friends and to all the other families of those involved. May God help them overcome this tragedy.

Joe

Up unitil about a year ago, I drove to work in DC traffic each day.  At the time, our situation required it.  There are times when road conditions and traffic cause otherwise normal people to do foolish things to save a few minutes of time.  I have seen it more times than I care to recall.  I am no better than these folks but my similarly foolish impulses were and are kept in check by the fact that I was in a serious accident many years ago and the fact that while driving to work I had the kids in the car.

I have little doubt that when the facts are known it will be a case of an otherwise normal person doing something foolish to save a few minutes of time.  There is no reason ever to be stopped on tracks- you must be certain you can clear them before approaching.  Unless there is a record of other problems at this crossing, it is driver error.  That being said, the driver doesn't deserve judgment but it should serve as a reminder to others to take a deep breath, leave some extra time, and be cognizant that, yes, you or others can get killed or seriously injured if you drive in a foolish manner.  

Technical question for you New York Central experts:  would the "shoe-under" type of third-rail shear more, less, or about the same as the "shoe-over" variety?  The third rails did shear in sections, and piled up inside the car.

Jon 

It would seem that the undershoe would exert upward pressure so that a rail could be caught and deflected upwards in an accident.  Pictures I have seen of under running rail, show the insulators and supports above the rail that would exert a downward pressure, if you will to keep the rail in palce. 

The over riding shoe on the other hand, presses rail down thus I would think minimize the tendency for the rail to come upwards if broken.

But then again, in an accident, there are all kinds of forces being exerted from "strange" angles, unanticipated by designers and contractors so probably can't say with confidence one method is better than the other.

My 2.5 cents.

Actually there is a really good parallel here.

The Metro runs in the median of route 66.   Think if it parallel'ed 66 and you had to cross the Metro tracks on an entrance ramp to 66. 

THIS appears to be exactly what the scenario is, with the MN trackage parallel'ing the Taconic.

A busy commuter railroad that is crossed by the entrance ramp of a very busy limited access highway. 

Negligent she may have been but there is no way we would engineer either like that any more.