Missing Zero(es), Misplaced Decimal, or Extra Zero(es) somewhere in the size/cost?
A great article(referred by the Lionel FB page), on an admirable project, but I can't get the math on the cost(s) to add up w/o photos or more information. What do you think?
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Sounds about right. 45 square feet - 5 by 9 feet? Took two weeks to build. A well done basic layout of that size would take about that much time, full time. At $350-$400 per square foot, a reasonable figure I use to estimate layout cost, that's around $16,000 to $18,000, leaving something out of that $20K for some basic conventional toy trains, etc. I think it adds up?
In typical newspaper fashion, they may have only listed the "highlights" of the layout as described by the builder. If it is only 9x5 feet (45 sq.ft.) with one train and those accessories, then I agree that the valuation seems way too high. Anything undescribed (like local electrical work required, remodeling to fit properly or nicely, more accessories, lots of expensive track and switches, etc.) could easily account for the difference.
Chuck
Lee is probably close in his estimate if it was professionally built. Then again it could be a 'slightly' inflated for tax purposes? With a value that high one could reasonably expect that someone will be listing it as a tax deduction on their tax forms.
Folks,
If you don't know it by now, you should. Anything associated with the land of blue and orange can be likened to a bad trip. Everything is blown out of proportion. Pretty soon you'll be chasing the white rabbit.
Tried to read the article....but it made me take a survey in order to read....I bailed.
Things to consider........
A layout in public space has to be super child proof. No sharp edges, pinch points, electrical isolation, super safe everything.
Commercial grade construction - Fire codes have to be met.....could mean metal frame construction. Layout has to be able to be pushed on, leaned on....very stable. This could easily triple the layout cost over a home layout of the same size.
May have to be portable and serviceable buy folks unfamiliar with it.
All ads up.
That layout is a steal for $20k. If it was S I would buy it.
I am in the process of having an S gauge layout professionally built. It is much more expensive than a similar size O gauge layout because almost everything needs to be custom built and more "stuff" fits on the layout because the scale is smaller. I hope the 3 rail O gauge people appreciate how good they have it.
Just curious not to mention down right nosy, why would you rob yourself of all the fun of building your lay-out?
Rob, I'll try to offer a slightly more cynical explanation. Tax write off.
I think someone alluded to that earlier.
I think someone alluded to that earlier.
My apologies rtr12, I see that now. 
In response to why I would rob myself of the fun of building my own layout there are two principal reasons, time and skill. I have built many tinplate and near high rail layouts over the years so I have had a lot of fun with those and I am well acquainted with my modeling limitations. I made a decision after several years of considering alternatives to have a permanent scale-detailed high rail layout professionally constructed. At about 275 square feet of table top there is no way I have either the time or modeling skills to do this to my own standards.
Some things for consideration. I will use the MTH S gauge flex track. Minimum radius will be 30" with one of the mainlines at 40". 30" in S is about the same as O72. There are no turnouts available ready made in numbers 4,5,6,8 or curved. Interestingly if I built an S scale layout the turnouts are available from a custom turnout fabricator but I plan to run Gilbert and Lionel Flyer on the layout so scale track is not an option. I would need to hand make over 70 turnouts. There are minimal structures available in S so most need to be custom built or kit bashed. Building a 275sf detailed layout in S rather than O adds about 30% to the cost of the layout because there is so much more custom work plus more structures and turnouts can be used since they are smaller.
Since I travel typically four days per week on business I do not have a few hours each night to work on a layout. We have decided to treat this as a retirement gift and have it in place before I retire.
On the fun side all is not lost. In my home office I have room for about a 5X12 layout. I plan to build that myself as an all original Gilbert style layout. Plus there is always the annual layout under the Christmas tree I need to build.
Found a video of the layout. Great story, but no way that's 20,000.
Found a video of the layout. Great story, but no way that's 20,000.
Full retail of all items, $20 hour labor.......you might be able to say $20K as a write off.....selling it for that......give me 5K and I'll replicate!
But there is a added cost to a public display when there is building codes to follow.....but not THAT much.
Spending time recently with professional layout builders I have learned their work is more costly than I initially assumed There is also a lot of variability in the finished product, both in what is visible and what is hidden. I also now have a good understanding of what drives the cost.The 5X9 layout is priced at $444/sf. In my opinion that price is too high. It is hard to tell from the picture but I do not see, superelevated track, easements, weathered rail, custom made bridges and structures or related detailing that drives to those prices. Although as was pointed out above, if this was built to commercial standards for a public area that also adds cost.
On my own project we are just in the 2D CAD design phase so we do not have any final counts of bridges, structures, turnouts or ratio of hidden to visible track. The ROM I am working with is 3,000 modeling/construction hours plus materials. That was to be the upper bound with some of the final decisions likely to reduce that number. The family CFO has agreed to release funding for the project because it is the better for her of two alternatives. She does not want a multi-year construction project in the middle of her newly rebuilt dream home and she wants me available to travel after retirement, not constantly working to build a complicated layout. We will see how that works out!
Found a video of the layout. Great story, but no way that's 20,000.
Full retail of all items, $20 hour labor.......you might be able to say $20K as a write off.....selling it for that......give me 5K and I'll replicate!
But there is a added cost to a public display when there is building codes to follow.....but not THAT much.
My guess is every dollar that went into that room was counted, not just the layout cost. That sure isn't a 20g layout from what I see.
Premium materials, and labor at premium wages
It is a medical center after all.
Electrical drop, tile, ceiling, paint, lights,....wall$
... etc. it can add up quick
.
Thank you, Tom, as I said just being nosy! Laying track and landscaping is one thing but when you are talking custom realistic structure then you are getting into the realm of artistry and the artist can put whatever price he thinks the traffic will bear. I hope that you have years of retirement to enjoy your trains!
No problem, glad to help out. The only reason for the artistry is the lack of commercially available structures and turnouts in S.
The way it will work is I pay a fixed rate per hour times the number of hours actually spent plus materials at cost. A straight reimbursable cost project. I take the risk so there is no built in contingency, plus I can stop the detailing at any point.
Thanks, I also hope I am around for a long time to enjoy it. I would like it installed by the end of this year. My wife is talking about doing a documentary of the process. We shall see if that happens.
"There are no turnouts available ready made in numbers 4,5,6,8 or curved. Interestingly if I built an S scale layout the turnouts are available from a custom turnout fabricator but I plan to run Gilbert and Lionel Flyer on the layout so scale track is not an option. I would need to hand make over 70 turnouts. There are minimal structures available in S so most need to be custom built or kit bashed. Building a 275 sf detailed layout in S rather than O adds about 30% to the cost of the layout because there is so much more custom work plus more structures and turnouts can be used since they are smaller."
I've worked in both O scale and S scale and would suggest building in S but spacing the scenery out to O size, the same amount of buildings,bridges, etc. as an O layout but more realistically spread out with roads, fields, etc. taking up the extra space. This will lower the cost based on number of buildings and other models plus give a more realistic look to the finished layout. I'd also cut the number of turnouts in half for that much area and make the sidings, yards, etc. proportionally longer. 70 turnouts is a lot of trouble to install and maintain. Look at real railroads and how they manage with as few as possible then maybe you can trim some off the plan. If you need those 4,5,6,8,etc. turnouts there's no reason you can't have someone make them as high rail instead of scale, it just takes larger rail and different spacing of the parts. I'm glad to see someone making a new S layout as I think it's a great size to work with. .DaveB
Working full time, $20,000 for two weeks minus, let's say, generously, $4,000 for materials and trains, is $8,000 per week. You do the math 
. More than two experienced pediatricians typically earn per year. More per year than the average full professor of anything, including finance at the Wharton School, and more than the average orthopedic surgeon. And I'm including both salary and benefits (figure benefits at 25-30% of salary).
But what's the point of quibbling. This was donated, not purchased. The builder can set any reasonable value on it that he or she wants. The main point is this was a generous donation of one man's professional time and effort.
I think someone alluded to that earlier.
My apologies rtr12, I see that now.
Thanks, but no apologies needed.
Dave, good points. The numbers I gave are at the recommendation of the builder to assure we will not exceed them. Hate to go back to the CFO for additional funding. We will see after a couple iterations of the CAD files. My initial turnout count was under 40. Roads will also take up space and should be inexpensive to model. The setting is western Pennsylvania, summer, mid 50's.The number of trees will also be important.
"My initial turnout count was under 40. Roads will also take up space and should be inexpensive to model. The setting is western Pennsylvania, summer, mid 50's.The number of trees will also be important."
40 turnouts or less sounds like a good number to shoot for. I'm planning a new S scale layout now and that's my goal for about a 400 foot space. It's not just the cost of more turnouts, I've found as I get older I want a simpler layout because I have less interest in maintaining it. Each turnout is a potential trouble spot compared to just having regular track there, that's why the railroads are so quick to remove unused track and switches.
Along with roads you can lower cost by making larger parking lots around your buildings and even making some buildings larger but less detailed styles. A few cars in a parking lot is faster and cheaper to build than another detailed city building. Trees can be a big expense so I try to maximize the use of backdrops at forest locations and blend 3D trees into painted trees to make the forest look thicker. I've never been to Western Pennsylvania but it sounds like it would be a neat place to model....DaveB
"The train was built by Cream Ridge resident Stan Wisniewski, a master builder for his company East Coast Enterprises, along with electrical work by Rich Roman and landscaping by Rich Rossbach. All donated their labor."
Its no wonder that it is hard to attract new folks into the hobby. They see an article like this in the paper and decide that there is no way they can afford the hobby.
It wasn't built with union labor or in a hospital.
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