Mixing O Gauge by manufacturer?

Mfrs take liberties with scale but generally you can mix their stuff.  This is espcially true of the rolling stock, i.e. you can mix up RailKing, Lionel, K-Line, Weaver, etc.

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Dennis

When making "scale" O gauge products, the manufatures use the corret 1/4" scale. 

 

When getting down to the "traditional" trains, the scale varies, may not be consistant in propotion as to height/lenght/width and there are no standards.  Lionel, MTH, K-Line/RMT all use different proportions.

 

CTT recently did a brief article with an "O gauge" boxcar comparison, ranging from the Marx tin meatloafs to true O scale models.

 

Rusty

Hi Mike, I'm still learning, but here is what I know so far.  Although most mfrs cars and accessories are compatable with one another, Lionel cars are smaller scale than Atlas or MTH.  MTH Premier is true 1/48 scale, and most RailKing are bigger than Lionel, especially as to height and width.  I do not mix consists, because of the difference in size.  Lately, I have gne almost exclusively with MTH Premier.

As to buildings and accessories, mixing does not seem to be a problem.  In fact, differences in appearance seem more natural to me.

If you sit at a crossing and watch a freight go by you see all different lenghts, heights, and types of rolling stock.  This was especially true a few years back.  So I mix all my freight cars in a freight consist and it looks realistic to me.

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Dennis

Mike,

 

Things are a little confusing even for those that have been in the hobby a while.  The "O" stands for the guage of the track also known as the distance between the outside rails.  "O" gauge and "O-27" rolling stock from all the manufacturers; Lionel, MTH Premier, MTH RailKing, Atlas "O",Weaver, Williams, K-line, K-line by Lionel, RMT by Aristocraft, I think I got them all, should be compatible and should run on the same track.  The problem becomes the actual size of the rolling stock.  The accepted scale for "O" Scale equipment is 1:48, 1 real inch equals 48 train inches however not all equipment is scale sized due to the true life dimensions of the equipment.  "Traditional" sized equipment, most starter set and older items tend to run smaller, using selective compression to make smaller dimensions look proportional, and have less added on details than more recnt scale sized equipment.  Larger scale sized equipment may also require wider curve radii than traditional sized equipment.  Not knowing the particular set you have I can't be positive but I don't believe that you have scale sized equipment so you would probably want to add traditional sized equipment to blend in with what you already have.  MTH RailKing, Williams, RMT by Arstocraft and Lionel traditional sized or Starter set expansion equipment should work well.  Some scale size equipment that models smaller true life railroad equipment could also blend well, 40' boxcars or flat cars, two bay hoppers or shorter covered hoppers like the one made by Weaver as well as some early road and switcher diesel engines that were smaller in real life should also blend in with what you already have.

 

Joe

As you can see from the answers above, it can be fairly complicated, but it is important, because it is possible to mix the "wrong sizes" and end up with a very awkward looking mess. 

 

Lionel has two "sizes" - Standard (usually right at 1:48 scale) and Traditional (smaller, corresponding to classic O gauge toy trains of the pre-and post-war era). You will find a description of which you are looking at in the upper corner of each page of the Lionel catalog.  If in doubt, look there to determine if a particular product is scale or not.  Depend on the product number to know for sure: sometimes there are standard and traditional versions of both and, in a photo at least, they look almost exactly alike.

 MTH has similar size distinctions (Premier = scale usually, Railking = not).  Other manufacturers tend to stick with one or the other only (3rd Rail - scale only, RMT = traditional only) but some (Atlas, Williams by Bachman) do a bit of both and you have to be careful which is which (Atlas Industrial Rail is mostly traditional).

 

To add to this, "traditional" has no actual size rules: its justa catch-all for "not scale."  For example, the Atlas Industrial Rail Atlantic (4-4-2) is very small.  Put it next to other traditional locos and it look tiny - put it next to a scale Atlantic, and it looks like dinner for the bigger loco.  It all makes it very confusing, I know. 

 

But there is a bigger mismatch which is more important to keep in mind.  Modern rolling stock and engines are big compared tostuff that rolled on rails in early periodI.  Even within scale 1:48, a model of a big, modern boxcar, car carrier or tank car can look very out of place with a scale 1930s boxcar or tank cars.  I try to avoid this. 

 

Hope this helped.

Watch a real deal freight train. You will notice that boxcars, tank cars, hoppers, and gondolas are all type of sizes and configurations.

Since I run passenger train equipment with different sizes of the coaches and road names, it does not make any sense to me to mix manufacturers.

Mike F. - In your specific situation, most MTH Railking cars will look good with most Lionel starter set / traditional sized cars.  There will be some variation in size, but as others have noted, that'll probably make things look more realistic / better (since you see that in real life).  The "eye test" is your best bet... Lee made a good point above in that even cars with the same brand / category might not look great together (e.g. a modern Railking 50' boxcar next to a 19th century Railking boxcar). 

 

Passenger cars are another ball of wax.  Basically the same story (scale v. not), but within the "non scale" category you can have a wide range.  e.g., Railking 60' cars that are 18" long v. Railking / Traditional "O27" cars that are 15" long v. RMT Peep cars that are about 7" long!

 

Depending on where you want to go, how old your son is, etc., give thought to going with strictly "scale" stuff.  Generally, while usually very nice, the stuff is often less kid friendly (e.g. usually more expensive, much more detail (i.e., fragile), etc.).  Also, most of the operating cars (that kids usually enjoy) is traditional / railking size.

 

One point here that helps to confuse the issue.  Some MTH Rail King engines (all diesel I think) are in fact SCALE (1:48). So you must pay close attention the the catalog write ups.  Most Scale MHT RK are identified in the catalog as such.  But the are a few (the SW1 switchers as example) where you must read the catalog text closely.

Absolutely true - and here's one more wrinkle. Some traditional Lionel diesels were pretty close to scale size. The F units and the Geeps are slightly undersized, but only slightly. And some engines were actually oversized - the 44 tonner and the General come to mind. This was because the motors and mechanisms of the day wouldn't have fit inside scale-size versions of these very small locomotives. 

Once you step out of 1:48 scale, this gets tough even within a manufacturer.  My Lionel Santa Fe passenger cars are, for example, much bigger than my Union Pacific streamliners but both are marked as O27.

 

Unfortunately, there really aren't any rules. But, I imagine there are variations on real railroads too.

 

In many cases, there are 3 or more sizes of an item.  For example, there are full scale-sized 2-8-4 Berkshires, Traditional Sized (about 20-21" in length), and Junior Sized (about 18" in length, such as the Polar Express)

 

My rule of thumb is this for my traditional/semi/non-scale buys

 

Lionel traditional are safe except some diesel engines

Lionel traditional Junior/Baby steam engines are real small.  If you have those, you have to be extra careful matching other mfrs. 

K-line, Atlas Industrial Rail, and MTH Rugged Rails are safe matches to Lionel traditional

Williams - generally safe, but some rolling stock and passenger cars are scale and a bit oversized for my layout

MTH RailKing - I examine every piece closely to make sure it doesn't dwarf everything it'll be running with. 

It's very important to only use Lionel equipment that was made in June, 1951--and make sure the track is laid out East to West, unless it's a Leap year...

 

Jeff C

I knew today was a bad day to stop drinking...why didn't anyone stop me??

 

Jeff C

And to further muddy the waters, MTH make their European passenger cars in true 1:43.5 scale, (or 7mm to the foot), which is actually the correct scale if you are modeling standard gauge (4'8 1/2"), which 1/48 scale is not.

And to just muddy the waters a bit further. When Lionel first started making scale trains in O back in the mid 1930's like the M100000 and such, they actually used 1:45 scale or 17/64" scale.

 

Real railroad standard gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches works out to 4.7083 feet

 

at 17/64 inch scale the 1.25 inch gauge works out to be 4.7059 feet.

 

At 1/4 inch scale the 1.25 inch O gauge works out to be 5.000 feet.

 

However, the first computer will not come into existence until 1939, so try by hand multiplying by 17 and then dividing by 64 and you will soon find out why Lionel went to 1/4 inch scale and abandoned 17/64 inch scale.  Its much easier to multiply by 1 and divide by 4 than it is to multiply by 17 and divide by 64.

 

Even though it may not seem like much going from 1/4 inch scale to 17/64 inch scale, a GP7 in 17/64 is about an inch longer than a GP7 in 1/4 inch scale so it is quite significant.

 

Many of the sticklers about scale and gauge have something called Proto 48 which is not compatible track gauge with traditional O gauge.

1/45 scale is still used in Continental Europe.

I am with Dennis and BillT, mix what you have, run the wheels off of them, buy more....but most of all, have fun.

 

Do you think you guests notice the differences, or the 1/48, 1/50 vs. the 1/43 autos most of the time. Boards mixed with all kinds have what I call "my forced perspective."

 

I force my guests to look at what they see and enjoy it, not analyze it. Most are able to.

 

Just my 10 cents worth....2, adjusted for inflation.

 

Greg

The short answer is that most MTH Rail King cars are larger than the cars you get in a Lionel starter set. Having said that the MTH cars have some quality features that the Lionel starter set cars don't have such as die cast metal sprung trucks and they look better overall. This is not to say that Lionel doesn't alsohave these features in their seperate sale rolling stock but the MTH cars will work well with your Lionel starter set and will also give you a TASTE of the possibilities of today's O gauge trains from the likes of Lionel and MTH. One thing I'd like to say about locomotives is that MTH locomotives don't play well with Lionel transformers but ALL MTH locomotives from top to bottom use a fairly sophisticated control system that is literally beloved by its adherents and has made many beginners into lifelong hobbyists. Lionel also offers a fine control system but only in its more expensive engines. If you're interested in sticking around the hobby a while, ask your hobby dealer to demonstrate MTH DCS and Lionel Legacy control systems just so you know what's out there. I'm not so much of a control "geek" but its a major factor in the popularity of modern 3 rail trains. HO trains also have a control system but it's not as feature packed as the 2 systems we O gaugers enjoy.

Uhhh..where is the NMRA...uh..NSMTPMA...when you need it, to lay down the law?  (National Scale Model Tinplate Measurement Association)  Doesn't Rule 999-333 in

the Official Directive of Equipment, 1999, Second Edition, say that "henceforth from

1/1/2000, all AC three rail toy train rolling stock newly manufactured to operate on traditional 1 1/4" gauge track must conform to the actual scale of 1/4 inch equals one foot in comparison to the protoype it models"? Is there a later edition that overrules that?  Is that why manufacturers are ignoring it?  (there is a footnote at

the bottom of the page saying the penalty for disobedience is that offending items

must be sharply discounted into the marketplace within 3 months of direction from

the NSMPTMA Board)  I haven't seen that happening lately.

Go ahead and mix manufacturers. Go ahead and mix different scales of cars. Go ahead and put the caboose in the middle of the train if you want to. It's your layout and your train. You can do whatever you want.

They don't lay down the law.  They have no binding authority or rule of law behind them, and actually have no skin in the game.  They make suggestions and provide guidelines.  The guidelines might even make sense, but they are't the ones putting money on the line and hoping they can keep their businesses afloat, so sometimes/many times they are politely ignored. I not only understand i fully support the manufacturers in taking that line - I would if it were my money.

 

Me? I manufacture nothing, but on my layout - I may read their guidelines but consider them as just that and often ignore them, and do what I think makes the most sense in each instance.   

The disparity of scales in O-gauge is one of the quirks that I try to work around. If my 6044 boxcar makes my FA loco look fat, I put a gondola in between them.

 

I do something similar Ace.  I really like the Lionel 40 foot flatcars, but they are a bit wider than most of my traditional size rolling stock.  When building a train that has one or more of the Lionel flatcars, I simply separate the flatcars from traditional size boxcars by using an MTH Railking gondola or a Lionel tank car. 

 

Curt

Thats funny

Unless everyone that walks into your house and views your trains are scale modelers, do you really think that anybody is going to say, "Gee, that traditional-sized boxcar is a bit smaller than your Standard O diesel engine; it doesn't look right."? Furthermore, the fact that there can be a "governing body" dictating the size of model trains being manufactured is nothing short of laughable.

Manufacturers (except for maybe Atlas) often call their stuff "scale" when it is not 1:48.  Other times it is 1:48.   Lionel and especially Williams are routine offenders of this, but MTH out-and-out lies about "scale" on some of their stuff too.

 

O gauge model railroading has no real standards (like herding cats, as they say).  Its up to you to measure each unit yourself and compare it to published prototype measurements. 

I reocmmend just going with what looks good to you.  So it is worth noting that occasionally you run into a legitimately accurate all-scale combination that does not look good.  In some combinations of giant steam with passenger cars (those that actually ran long about) you can get a loco that looks a bit too tall in comparison to the passenger cars, but that is just the way they were.  I don't run those combinations too often if the look offends my eye, correct or not. 

You need to be careful in modeling reality. Last summer I watched a freight train near Plymouth, MI. It had box cars that looked 40 ft long or even less, others and car carriers twice as long. Some of the cars were almost new others looked ancient and in terrible shape. The lead locomotive was rusty and beat up, looking like the wrong side of an accident. The second locomotive made the first look almost new.

Anyone model this sort of thing?

Model it? Sounds like everything I own and run! Anyone else?

 

Greg

Not only that, there should be no rules... it's a hobby, and people should be able to run whatever they want on their own layouts. It would be REALLY NICE though if the mfgrs could provide some guidance to help us decide what to buy BEFORE we part with our money. Maybe just an agreement among them that "O-27" is approximately 1/55 (or whatever), "classic" or "traditional" is about 1/50, etc. Maybe tell us what the actual dimensions are.

As it stands, it's easy to know what looks good with "scale" ) Gauge - just buy the latest and greatest. Finding out what looks good with the smaller "traditional" stuff seems to take many hours of research, lots of dollars to buy things that end up not being what you want, or a bunch of plain old luck. I just want to run trains that are sized "compatibly."

I'd be happy to buy a reference book that gives dimensional data on "major" O Gauge offerings. Is one available?

 

Cheers,

Ken

Mike,

   Because my layout is a childs wonderland, I run all the different Post War O Gauge together, even run the Tin Plate Trains on the same tracks with the Post war trains at times, along with the new P2 controlled trains. 

PCRR/Dave

 

A 1959 Conventional Lionel GP7 Northern Pacific and a new MTH P2 263E Tin Plate,

running side by side in oppsite directions. 

 

I just picked up an MTH O gauge B&M gondola car.  It matches perfectly with all the Lionel O gauge we have.  In some ways, it's a nicer car....and was a lot cheaper than Lionel.  The couplers don't open and close however, but everything is thicker and heavier.  The size matches with everything else I have which was what I was worried about.  I'll buy more MTH cars for sure.