Modern-Era 6464 boxcars

They're all pretty high quality. Though beware of some people asking for astronomical prices on the first series from 1993. It is quite hard to find.

I agree they are all high quality and use the same sprung trucks used on Lionel's full scale boxcars. Prices are way down from where they were just a few years ago. Shop around and be patient.

Pete

The first edition has always been the only expensive one since its issue over 20 years ago.

I always thought that they were great.  They're heavy with sprung metal trucks.  Great crisp graphics.

Alan

I agree that these cars are all of good quality and an easy way to build a "themed" element to your collection (assortment?) of trains.  But beware!  Lionel issued MANY of these, not just the originals.  There are Archive cars, Variation cars, Overstamped cars and club specials.  Not to mention individual cars from sets!  There are also 6464  marked cars from Williams, MTH and K-Line, the list is nearly endless!

Rolland

I really like the ones I have.  I've bought some recently on the Bay for less than $20 per car, which I think might be less than they sold for when new.  You can't buy a new boxcar

for $20 unless it's from Menard's.

Thanks everyone for your valuable feedback.  Really appreciate your insight.  Will be patient and will look carefully.  Your information will help me make an informed decision before purchasing.

Bob

The hardest ones to find are the TCA Museum cars -125 and -150's stamped TCA museum Only 300 each were produced. and they caused a heck of a ruckus among the membership. One was first come first served, which rankled everyone. Then the second was sold via lottery, which drove prices up further on these two cars. So, there are only 300 possible complete sets of the modern remakes possible. Good luck! Oh and I think there is about 105 modern cars total, 145 total including the originals.

Jim, What about the 2003 TCA Western Division WP Banquet cars, 6-52282? I suspect there are far fewer than 300 of these.

Pete

The TCA website has a wealth of information on the 6464 series boxcars.

http://tcaetrain.org/2d-articl...464chart/index.shtml

http://www.tcaetrain.org/2d-ar...6464chart_notes.html

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_1/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_2/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_3/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_4/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_5/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_6/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...464_part_7/index.htm

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...g/tca6464/index.html

If it was 1955 and I was running on an O-31 layout, I would be interested.  But now 60 years later I would have to say NO.  I much prefer the scale items that are everywhere.

If it's a simple explanation, can you mention what the -125 and -150 are?  I can't believe it's any of the museum commemorative cars, as many of those no one seems to car about any more.

Is it a standard issue 6464 remake of some road name but with the different number stamped on it?

Thanks.

As to the OP question on the remake sets 1-10, I'll agree with the other posts mentioning only series one is higher priced and/or harder to come by.  All the rest have come down to the point where I'm pretty certain you can pick up the 3 pack for less than $100, maybe as low as around 70-80.  some people still ask what used to be a somewhat standard $300 or so for series one, but I' think a few people actually realize those days are probably for the most part over, I think I've seen series one offered for significant less now (bit not as low as the others).

-Dave

As usual, I don't think there's any good reason for this phenomenon... aside from the fact that some sellers always seem to push the price envelope on "something".  And putting a premium on the first 3-pack just "sounded good".  I highly doubt that the first 3-pack was produced in lower quantities than the other nine 3-packs... they've just been out in the market longer.

If you're lucky, you may find somebody who's selling an entire 6464 collection... all ten 3-packs... for a reasonable price.  I sold mine that way here on the forum about 3 years ago in one of my first collection-thinning efforts.  

Generally speaking, most folks in this hobby nowadays have a tendency to operate/run their trains -- as opposed to just displaying them on a wall, or stash them in storage.  So whether production was limited (i.e., like the reference to some cars having a production run of 300) or just run-of-the-mill general quantities (presumably 1,000+) matters very little to people today.

So many trains are out there in the market now... with a seemingly endless supply of new and expensive offerings each year... that folks seem less inclined to lock their attention onto any one particular offering (or series of offerings) anymore --  arguably even the once-venerable 6464 boxcars.  They're certainly nice to own, but few people seem willing to pay a premium for them anymore.  Times change... and people change.

David

I won't suggest I have any hard evidence to prove the contrary(there's of course no way I could), but it's possible there may have been fewer of those just because Lionel didn't necessarily know for sure they would be a hit.

For some collectors, I suspect there might be some level of wishing to maybe keep the "1st" of something, even if they later didn't care about the rest.

I'd be an example of that phenomena with a newer series, the president boxcars.  I bought the first 8 because I thought they were a neat design, and I wanted to support the idea of partial USA manufacturing.  I am definitely not buying them all though at this point.  (I did buy one of a more recent group just because it was a favored president I grew up with).

-Dave

Originally Posted by Dave45681:

We never know about this stuff.  Take Lionel's attempts at producing scale PS-1 versions of the 6464 boxcars.  They issued two 2-packs over a period of 2 years or so as I recall to kick off the "series", but the effort appears to have been a complete non-starter.   They produced both 2-packs in fairly substantial quantities, and some of the larger dealers are still trying to unload them.  There seems to be no critical interest among enthusiasts for these -- even at blowout prices.

Honestly, I would have sprung for the whole series of 6464 paint schemes as PS-1 scale boxcars, but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen now.  Oh well...

David

Pete, I'm pretty sure they were not stamped 6464 anywhere. 1954-2003 but not 6464

If it's a simple explanation, can you mention what the -125 and -150 are?  I can't believe it's any of the museum commemorative cars, as many of those no one seems to car about any more.

Is it a standard issue 6464 remake of some road name but with the different number stamped on it

6464-125, 6464-150. I was using shorthand. The Museum bought up some over runs of the series and had "The National Toy Train Museum" stamped on them, like boxcar reporting numbers. They are still Mopac and NYC boxcars.

Jim, you are absolutely correct. I had picked this up along with its more common convention cousin for my Western Pacific 6464 size sub collection. I agree if its not numbered 6464 it  shouldn't be included in the list.

I might have to start another thread dedcated to Western Pacific traditional size boxcars.

Pete

We have two 3 packs of 6464 boxcars at my train club's company store. If I remember corectly we were asking $60 per three pack. Off hand I do not have any additional info on these 3 packs but if anyone is interested send me an email and I will let you know the part number of the three pack and the road names in each. My email is in my profile so if you are interested send an email. Twenty dollars per boxcar is not a bad price. The club is the Black Diamond Society of Model Engineers in Bethlehem Pa. Shipping will be extra if you are not local to Bethlehem. I will be at the club on Tuesday to get the info on the three packs.

JohnB

They are great to run and make a fantastic, colorful display!

Peter

to me the modern era 6464 boxcar series started with 19200 (Tidewater Southern, 1987), not (19247).  through 1993, there were about 4-5 issued each year, though you had to look for a break-up of the FF series to capture the yearly premium car (with sprung trucks).

a few years into the series i started to replace the standard trucks with die-cast sprung trucks, so all of mine are upgraded.  there were some oddballs thrown into that 19200 series like the Lionel Lines cars (19219 - 19223) and the Disney Hi-cubes, but the rest are of the same style (same mold?) as the 6464's.  why these earlier, unique cars don't seem to garner the same respect as the reissued 6464s is a mystery to me.

cheers...gary

6464 boxcars scream nostalgia.   And that's their big draw.  Look at Peter's display a couple of posts above, and it's a snapshot of Lionel postwar history.

The cars you mentioned have no nostalgic draw, per se.  They're to be enjoyed in their own right by folks who like newer designs and paint schemes.  But lacking the post-war nostalgia factor is likely the prime reason they're not really viewed as part of 6464 folklore.  

When I think 6464, it's a very focused group of boxcars with certain roadnames and paint schemes from the post-war era.  Any "new" paint schemes -- even if they're based on a 6464 mold/style -- are off the radar screen as it pertains to 6464 nostalgia.  That's just the way it is.  

David 

With the possible exception of Torpedo tooling cut into overpriced ice cube sized chunks, nothing Lionel has ever done screams nostalgic exploitation as did the excessive use of PW 6464's during the LTI years.
Talking about silliness, I wonder if my Vapor Records 6464 has appreciated over the years?

Joe    

No question that Lionel exploited the 6464 boxcars with its remake of the PW cars, but the cars are nice none the less.  I have large number of 9400 cars with their plastic trucks and lack of rivet detail which I would like to find a new home for.  I'll stick with the modern 6464's.

With all due respects, where's the exploitation in Lionel reproducing the 30 boxcars from the original 6464 series?    I'm talking about the 3-packs issued as Volumes I thru X?  For many of us who "remember" Lionel from our childhood, but couldn't necessarily afford to purchase all those iconic 6464 boxcars, the re-issues hit a bull's eye on the target.  Excellent move on Lionel's part, for sure.  And offered at a very reasonable price-point.  End of story.

If there was any evidence of "exploitation" as you call it, that only came with the variety of 6464 variations that followed after the initial ten 3-packs... stuff like the archive 6464 series, overstamp 6464 series, and one-off odds-and-end 6464 offerings like the Vapor Records nonsense.  As I've said repeatedly, times have changed... and people's interests have changed.  Little -- if any -- of this stuff has appreciated.  And in fact, most can be had for considerably less than enthusiasts paid for them when the offerings were first released. 

That's just the reality of our living in the golden age of O-Gauge these days.  Too many offerings are being pumped out year-after-year, so people's interests evolve over time.  It will only end when the new stuff prices a critical mass of toy train enthusiasts out of the market.  And there's evidence of the beginnings of that now.  In fact, if you haven't noticed, a few forum sponsors are having absolutely DYNAMITE summer liquidation sales right now.  Unbelievably -- nearly unprecedented pricing levels on stuff... just because these items haven't moved out of inventory in the past few years.  As long as that continues to happen, none of this stuff is gonna appreciate in value.  Generally speaking, those days are an indiscernible image in our rear-view mirrors.

David

The LTI 6464's were leaps and bounds better in detail than the MPC 9400 boxcars whose characteristics screamed "total-lack-of-detail".    Although I'm not one of them, lots of folks here seem to be taking an interest in some of Lionel's MPC offerings again.  More power to them... but these folks aren't looking to spend big bucks on this stuff.  Many want them for next to nothing.  So plan on unloading your 9400 boxcars for $10-$12/each... or perhaps even less when selling in huge quantities.  Despite the detail short-cuts that Lionel MPC was well known for in its day, the paint schemes were colorful enough to still attract a segment of buyers today.  There's always a market for attractive items at bargain-basement prices.

David

That's exactly what I was referring to.  Reissuing the original 31 cars in 3 packs started out as a great idea.  But as usual, Lionel doing what Lionel always does when a winner appears,. they didn't know when to quit and move on to another project. They started the treadmill and exploited  the original 31 car 6464 series with a string of must have add on's that only ended when fans wised up and lost interest in the entire 6464 program. Which BTW, contributed greatly to the eventual collapse of the Lionel modern era collector market. 

Joe

hmmm, all the treadmills I have been on have a stop button. I've never seen the Lionel treadmill. Theirs must have been made by the same outfit that made the one at the chocolate factory that Lucy and Ethel worked at.

Pete

No stop button on the Lionel treadmill for collectors.

You grow weary and fall off...

Joe

 i'm sure fans of the WP (the first in the 6464 series) might take exception to that...

as soon as i saw the first car in the 19200 series, i thought this might be something worth collecting...

the connection to the Feather River Line is quite obvious...

and Lionel did a decent job of capturing actual prototype graphics.

the 19200 series started off filling in a lot of missing pieces in the original ~30 liveries.  despite a few oddballs like the Lancaster & Chester and Vermont Railway, roadnames like the Miwaukee Road, Frisco, Cotton Belt, SP&S and Clinchfield to only name a handful, were great additions to the heritage of the 6464 series (and not all, btw, in boxcar brown).

who says nostalgia couldn't be measured on a sliding scale.  if you started collecting the "new 6464" series at 19248, you're missing half the picture.

cheers...gary

I believe the topic in question is about 6464 series boxcars specifically, not "6464-derived" cars like the 9200, 9700, 9400, etc. cars like the TideWater Southern car depicted above.

I have bought modern 6464 cars for as little as $15 so I figured about half that amount would be fair for a 9400 series car.  I've seen some crazy prices on the Bay and I can't believe anyone would pay some of the asking prices for a 9400 car.

the original question asked about the third 6464 reissue 3-pack.  call them collectively (19266) or individually 19267, 68 or 69; if you don't believe these cars are part of the 19200 series, you're living in denial.  at the time there were plenty of other 'xxx00' numbers Lionel could have chosen.

If the boxcars don't have the 6464 numbering system on the sides of the cars, or aren't listed by Lionel as part of the 6464 series, then as far as I'm concerned, they're not 6464 series cars, they're 6464-derived or just part of what other numbering series is used.

Some would take it further and say any 6464-numbered cars made after 1969 are not true 6464 boxcars either, due to the change in the catalog numbering system after the postwar period.

Within the #19200 product numbers you'll find besides 6464's a mixed bag of RS. Everything from Disney high cubes to RS boxcars.

Not that its important these days but just because one or two boxcar's that fit the profile of a 6464 in that 100 product number range of SKU's does not put it in the 6464 series.

Joe 

Gary,

There's nothing wrong with enjoying all the new boxcars that Lionel produced and continues to produce... whether they were 9200-, 9400-, 9700-series during the MPC/LTI years or WHATEVER new numbering scheme Lionel uses now in catalogs and on product box flaps.

But all those "other" boxcars are NOT automatic entries into the "6464 club" just because they are boxcars.  6464's were a special part of Lionel post-war to a lot of people.  So for the most part, we're talking about the 30 or so boxcars that are pictured in Peter's snapshot posted earlier in this thread.

Did Lionel exploit the re-issues by attempting to extend 6464's into archive series, overstamp series, etc... among others?  Absolutely.  And many folks saw it for what it was and didn't jump on those cars the way they did Volume I through X three-packs.

If you don't buy the nostalgic element of 6464's, then another way to look at it is this... the 6464's became "collectible" BECAUSE there were a finite manageable number of them.  It's not out of the question for serious enthusiasts to buy 30 boxcars.  But when importers push that to another level -- for example, like Atlas-O did with 40' reefers -- then folks lose interest in trying to "collect" an entire series.  It just gets too mind-boggling.  And with most folks more interested in operating trains rather than just collecting them today, it doesn't take all that much for folks to lose interest. 

Many of us thought Atlas-O's 40' reefers were gonna be the modern-day equivalent to Lionel's postwar 6464 boxcars.  But Atlas-O ruined a good thing by overproducing them... and then they even came out with 36' reefers and overproduced that series too.   As a result, folks pretty much bagged it after a few years and nowadays just yawn when Atlas-O announces yet another group of reefers.

So back to 6464's... best to just keep them defined as how most folks remember them.  Younger hobbyists will have enough newer trains that represent a special time in their lives, but those items will likely not be 6464's. 

David

Interesting -- and informative -- thread. I have a few of the 3-pack reissues and have often thought about trying to collect all in the series. Nice looking cars (as Peter's photo shows) and they fit right into my leanings towards PW Lionel. This may just light the fire to acquire some more.

Curious -- what was the original MSRP on the Lionel 3-packs? 

I believe about $100-125

Thanks, Doug.

After a quick perusal of the secondary market, looks like the 6464 remakes (the 3-pack versions) can be had for an average of about $20 per car.  A little more in some cases, less in others. Not bad.