I have a Lionel PA/PB/PA set that pulls my MTH Colorado Eagle. It looks so sharp. I purchased the Lionel MoPac/PRR two car set and not happy with the color difference. I don’t understand why Lionel put out their PA set as dark blue and the newer set powder blue. I know there is a MoPac Eagle Observation car at the National Museum of Transport that’s powder blue, but I like the dark blue set much more.
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The darker blue is “correct”. Here is pic from Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
The subject of color variations has been discussed (beaten to death) numerous times over the past several years on this forum. It was again discussed extensively only last week. Re: Milwaukee Road GP color variations between MTH and Lionel.
Thanks for the link Jackson.
I can see it's been a hot topic.
But the questions are still be posted. Others may also have an opinion that would help. Such as seeing TrainBob's answer.
Thanks for the input. I'll still keep asking questions.
Hope everybody does too.
Google result of MP Eagle colors.
The Missouri Pacific was known for its "Eagle" color scheme designed by Raymond Loewy. It consisted of dark cerulean, icterine yellow, and isabelline gray.
Check the above names using The Specific names.
Cheers
I grew up in St. Louis and saw those beautiful MP trains all the time from the 21st St Bridge. But all of my
photos were black and white. So this shot of my layout with
the MTH PA-1 and Railking coaches will have to do. Lew Schneider
I always thought the original Eagle was the lighter Dark Cerulean blue and then it changed to the even darker Jenks blue. First as the Eagle scheme and then the all blue Jenks scheme. Jenks blue is darker. Lionel just can't seem to get their MoPac offerings right. They should have had the lighter blue on the PA's and the darker blue on the GP35's and Sd40-2's.
I'm curious what blue 3rd Rail will use for their release of the Eagle and E5 / 6's.
@Texas Eagle 77 posted:I'm curious what blue 3rd Rail will use for their release of the Eagle and E5 / 6's.
I’m sure they will stick with what they’ve done for the multiple E’s they’ve issued. Here’s some pix. Lighting is everything when capturing images. The E’s and GP9 are 3rd Rail, the GP15 in Jenks is Atlas and the U30 in Jenks is MTH. 
Jenks Is Much darker.
3rd Rail production image Run 1
@lewrail posted:I grew up in St. Louis and saw those beautiful MP trains all the time from the 21st St Bridge. But all of my
photos were black and white. So this shot of my layout with
the MTH PA-1 and Railking coaches will have to do. Lew Schneider
Nice layout !!!! 👍
It be neat to see a few of your favorite b&w shots !!! 🤔
Your wish is my command. For more photos see lewrail.rrpicturearchives.net
If any problems let me know using my E mail in the profile. Here are 3 MP photos I took in the 1950s.
The topic has been beaten to death, but mostly because the people who make our trains keep painting them the wrong colors.
"Color is subjective," they say. No. What is subjective is your personal tolerance for inaccuracy. That part you can decide for yourself.
There was a big brouhaha about this a couple of years ago, when Lionel delivered cab units in the "Eagle" scheme, but silver and electric blue. The most useful posts in that thread are Number 90's, and the one following:
Yes, accuracy is important. And they don’t seem to agree on the colors to use... even with one manufacturer - Lionel. I purchased the Lionel PA-PB-PA set and the MTH passenger cars. Then the Lionel 21” MoPac/PRR two pack set. I just wanted the MoPac consist to look the same, accurate or interpreted.
@nickaix posted:"Color is subjective," they say. No. What is subjective is your personal tolerance for inaccuracy. That part you can decide for yourself.
Bill Wade of BTS Train Shop once told the story of a gent that had an HO model of an E-unit painted in Seaboard's mint green using the actual paint from the Seaboard Railroad shops. All the "local experts" commented on how it was the wrong shade of green. Go figure...
Rusty
@modeltrainsparts posted:The subject of color variations has been discussed (beaten to death) numerous times over the past several years on this forum. It was again discussed extensively only last week. Re: Milwaukee Road GP color variations between MTH and Lionel.
Well, folks have the option not to read the discussions, but apparently they're interested, because they keep reading them! 
As well said by nickaix above, the subject keeps coming up because the people who make our trains keep painting them the wrong colors. 
Can someone post a few photos of the Lionel MoPac PA's please?
Sure. These are from a while ago - MoPac is 2-railed, and the PRR is Overland brass:
It is not easy to see from my photos - but the Lionel plastic PA is easily among the very best and most accurate of all O Scale PAs, and that includes Key. What happened here is a customer wanted Overland mechanisms in the Lionel shells. I was truly impressed with the Lionel sideframes, and you might be looking at them under the Overland - not sure, it has been a long time since I did these.
If I liked plastic, I would have long since sold my doorstops and converted to these. However, plastic is not my hobby:
@c.sam posted:Can someone post a few photos of the Lionel MoPac PA's please?
Lewrail did up above in the thread.
Why is this thread in MTH General? It is covering much more than just MTH products.
Because it shows up in the sidebar, and folks like me just trigger off the title. We have no idea what forum it is in. Have the moderators delete Lionel stuff if it offends you - they are quick to do that.
Sorry for polluting the thread. The MTH PAs were also quite good.
Great great great great great
just great
now, on top of all the other focus driven functions I have to contend with in this little hobby, inaccuracy in colorization must be added to the list
when will it end?
please send your donations to my new charity to help those in need…
Rivet Counters Lives Matter
lets help them, help themselves to not be distracted from their rivet counting endeavors with small details, that can easily be overcome-like color pallet choices-just by running the trains faster 😁
Because a fast moving blurry train is a …
o great, just great…
please send donations to my other charity for “slow train runners anonymous”, because fast running trains make them sweat..and anyone whose been to a train show in August knows the dangers inherent in that disaster 😁
Actually this is one of my favorite aspects of the Model Railroading Hobby..no matter who you are, there’s a niche for you…and you can be as implacable on any aspect that you choose.
my favorite charity, that I’d like you all to donate to me, is, “Compulsory Train Buyers Anonymous”…I know I have no more track space to park trains on, but that does not stop me from buying “one more train”…sooooo, I need a bigger house…please help…
in lieu of 💰 these charities of mine accept trains, and their color doesn’t diminish their donation value😀
@lewrail posted:Your wish is my command. For more photos see lewrail.rrpicturearchives.net
If any problems let me know using my E mail in the profile. Here are 3 MP photos I took in the 1950s.
Nice photos !!!! Always nice to see personal “fresh” photos. Especially Good to see you include a “Babyface” Baldwin. 👍👍👍👍
@Rusty Traque posted:Bill Wade of BTS Train Shop once told the story of a gent that had an HO model of an E-unit painted in Seaboard's mint green using the actual paint from the Seaboard Railroad shops. All the "local experts" commented on how it was the wrong shade of green. Go figure...
Rusty
Because they had been using incorrectly painted model trains as their color guide?
Have seen that with cars where one has sat covered in a garage for 25 years, was washed and taken to a show. A feller brings a freshly repainted one there also and is quick to point out the unmolested car is the wrong color while his is perfect. 😁
With this being a golden age of research materials easily and readily available it is truly amazing how many tremendously incorrectly painted and lettered model trains are produced for sale. As if the correct color of paint is cost prohibitive compared to the incorrect one.
@1drummer posted:Great great great great great
just great
now, on top of all the other focus driven functions I have to contend with in this little hobby, inaccuracy in colorization must be added to the list
when will it end?
please send your donations to my new charity to help those in need…
Rivet Counters Lives Matter
lets help them, help themselves to not be distracted from their rivet counting endeavors with small details, that can easily be overcome-like color pallet choices-just by running the trains faster 😁
Because a fast moving blurry train is a …
o great, just great…
please send donations to my other charity for “slow train runners anonymous”, because fast running trains make them sweat..and anyone whose been to a train show in August knows the dangers inherent in that disaster 😁
Actually this is one of my favorite aspects of the Model Railroading Hobby..no matter who you are, there’s a niche for you…and you can be as implacable on any aspect that you choose.
my favorite charity, that I’d like you all to donate to me, is, “Compulsory Train Buyers Anonymous”…I know I have no more track space to park trains on, but that does not stop me from buying “one more train”…sooooo, I need a bigger house…please help…in lieu of 💰 these charities of mine accept trains, and their color doesn’t diminish their donation value😀
Please give it a rest. Everyone enjoys the hobby differently and those of us that know what the colors should be should not be admonished for enjoying the hobby differently than you.
@GG1 4877 posted:Please give it a rest. Everyone enjoys the hobby differently and those of us that know what the colors should be should not be admonished for enjoying the hobby differently than you.
Perhaps you should reread the paragraph that starts, “Actually this is one of my favorite aspects…”
sorry if you missed the intended humor in my post.
Interesting...
From a 2-minute Google search...
Color perception is a fascinating series of physical and chemical reactions which allow some organisms to see in color. The process of color perception is literally all in the mind, with the eye containing the equipment which responds to light so that the brain can process it.
It suggests that our perception of color is based off of parsing information from three different receptors: blue-yellow, red-green, and white-black.
In addition to innate or learned color perception, there are many other factors that affect color vision: Lighting: Light plays a HUGE role in color perception. It’s actually the color of the light that determines the color your brain will perceive. Age:As we get older, our perception of color starts to fade."
--------------
And, as I and others having had the corrective surgery experienced...
"Color perception may also be affected with cataracts. A person may find that colors are duller or have faded from previous recollections, or hues do not appear as intense as others describe. Colors may eventually appear to be tinged with yellow or a light brown. As the condition progresses, a person with cataracts may find it difficult to distinguish between similar colors, like different shades of blue or between blue and purple."
...from Signs of a Cataract (Eyes) and How Cataracts Affect Vision, by Dr. Chris @HealthHype.com.
-----
And we all know about the demographics of this hobby and WE old pharts who are old enough to have seen first-hand the 1:1 colors passing by, but now in our aged 'ripened' condition...mind and sight acuity...arguing with idiots regarding color fidelity 
.
Death, taxes,.....and now, color perception/recollection debates.
Guaranteed.
IMHO, of course.
Color is probably one of the top two or three response triggers in evaluation of a model. It can be seen at a greater distance and is far more likely to be recognizable than, say, which type of valve gear or horn an engine might have.
Considering 1 out of 3 males are colorblind and I know I am not… although some perceptions may differ; this thread has me laughing pretty good especially viewed on how many different monitors?
Hey, Happy Thanksgiving guys. 
@Erik C Lindgren posted:Considering 1 out of 3 males are colorblind and I know I am not… although some perceptions may differ; ... ...
Eric,
For the most prevalent kind of colorblindness it's 7% (in males), and not 25% in total. How do I know this?
And it's not just color. In too many areas they don't embrace the kind of quality control used in the production of most modern consumer goods.
Unfortunately, when none of the competitors are using it you end up with the problems we see, and no alternative.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Eric,
For the most prevalent kind of colorblindness it's 7% (in males), and not 25% in total. How do I know this?
- I'm one of the 7%.
- I was involved with automating color comparison testing equipment when it was in its infancy (1980's).
- The team I worked with studied color blindness in great detail in order to accommodate it successfully in the equipment. That's how I found out that I'm one of the 7%.
- Color comparison testing is better than ever today. We know how well it works because in addition to its intended use it's been adapted, quite successfully, to the paint tinting you now find in most home centers when you go in to make a match to an old color sample.
- The problem is that none of the manufacturers in our hobby use it.
And it's not just color. In too many areas they don't embrace the kind of quality control used in the production of most modern consumer goods.
Unfortunately, when none of the competitors are using it you end up with the problems we see, and no alternative.
Mike
That's pretty cool Mike. Very interesting. Good advice regarding many variables involved here, perception included.
In my graduate education at SVA in New York much of it was centered around color theory. One of my professors and still a good friend was involved in the creation of the Pantone system; she is also an amazing painter.
For our reading amusement.
https://www.colourblindawarene...rg/colour-blindness/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantone
https://www.benq.com/en-us/kno...fferent-devices.html
By the way my name is spelled EriK with a K not Eric.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Unfortunately, when none of the competitors are using it you end up with the problems we see, and no alternative.
Sunset's painting manufacturer in Asia uses color matching technology now and when actual paint samples have been obtained, the factory has done a good job matching them. When actual samples have not been available, Tru-Color paints are the normal go to as it allow modelers to touch up paint if they want. While they are not always perfect either, they are generally very good.
However, I must add that in the "old" days as recent as about 5 years ago there used to be an old Chinese gentleman who took the color samples provided and hand mixed paints in a cup until he got the right match. Hardly ideal, but he did a great job of matching samples more often than not. That takes real talent.
Another anecdote. In 2012 I was at the York show on behalf of Sunset for the first time and an old friend of Scott and Mort Mann came up to our table and started talking to me about colors for the New Haven FL9 which was in design at the time. He correctly pointed out that the phase II FL9 I was preparing the painting diagrams for had a slightly darker orange than the phase I FL9. He then proceeded to give me the drift cards for New Haven orange and that is how the correct color ended up on the models. Yes, the gentleman in Asia hand matched using his cup method. 
I am confident that the Blue color on the Sunset E6s is as accurate as one can hope for. Not too light, but definitely not Jenks Blue. Yes, I blew it on the roof color of the E8 as many pointed out at the time. The important part is a lesson was learned and the mistake was not repeated on subsequent PAs and E6s.
This tome is simply to point out that there are alternatives if the market demands it.
@GG1 4877 posted:Sunset's painting manufacturer in Asia uses color matching technology now and when actual paint samples have been obtained, the factory has done a good job matching them. When actual samples have not been available, Tru-Color paints are the normal go to as it allow modelers to touch up paint if they want. While they are not always perfect either, they are generally very good.
However, I must add that in the "old" days as recent as about 5 years ago there used to be an old Chinese gentleman who took the color samples provided and hand mixed paints in a cup until he got the right match. Hardly ideal, but he did a great job of matching samples more often than not. That takes real talent.
Another anecdote. In 2012 I was at the York show on behalf of Sunset for the first time and an old friend of Scott and Mort Mann came up to our table and started talking to me about colors for the New Haven FL9 which was in design at the time. He correctly pointed out that the phase II FL9 I was preparing the painting diagrams for had a slightly darker orange than the phase I FL9. He then proceeded to give me the drift cards for New Haven orange and that is how the correct color ended up on the models. Yes, the gentleman in Asia hand matched using his cup method.
I am confident that the Blue color on the Sunset E6s is as accurate as one can hope for. Not too light, but definitely not Jenks Blue. Yes, I blew it on the roof color of the E8 as many pointed out at the time. The important part is a lesson was learned and the mistake was not repeated on subsequent PAs and E6s.
This tome is simply to point out that there are alternatives if the market demands it.
Nice commentary Jonathan !!!
👍👍👍 🙂
@GG1 4877 posted:Sunset's painting manufacturer in Asia uses color matching technology now and when actual paint samples have been obtained, the factory has done a good job matching them. When actual samples have not been available, Tru-Color paints are the normal go to as it allow modelers to touch up paint if they want. While they are not always perfect either, they are generally very good.
However, I must add that in the "old" days as recent as about 5 years ago there used to be an old Chinese gentleman who took the color samples provided and hand mixed paints in a cup until he got the right match. Hardly ideal, but he did a great job of matching samples more often than not. That takes real talent.
Another anecdote. In 2012 I was at the York show on behalf of Sunset for the first time and an old friend of Scott and Mort Mann came up to our table and started talking to me about colors for the New Haven FL9 which was in design at the time. He correctly pointed out that the phase II FL9 I was preparing the painting diagrams for had a slightly darker orange than the phase I FL9. He then proceeded to give me the drift cards for New Haven orange and that is how the correct color ended up on the models. Yes, the gentleman in Asia hand matched using his cup method.
I am confident that the Blue color on the Sunset E6s is as accurate as one can hope for. Not too light, but definitely not Jenks Blue. Yes, I blew it on the roof color of the E8 as many pointed out at the time. The important part is a lesson was learned and the mistake was not repeated on subsequent PAs and E6s.
This tome is simply to point out that there are alternatives if the market demands it.
Jonathon,
Thanks for your detailed explanation of Sunset's paint matching process. Glad to see that color matching technology is now being used, yet just as importantly, that primary sources for original paint colors are part of it.
Very nice to know for future reference.
Mike
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