Just a thought here folks... If you are running DCC or DCS and have power pickup issues you may want to simply install a bigger capacitor. I would do that first before making any of the big mechanical pickup changes. Capacitance is a wonderful thing. Every engine I have installed capacitors into run fantastically well. Even if they were sketchy to start with. Just a thought.
Jonnyspeed, but I don't think the MTH electronics have a provision for adding capacitors to power the locomotive when going over a dead spot in the track.
Hudson J1e posted:Jonnyspeed, but I don't think the MTH electronics have a provision for adding capacitors to power the locomotive when going over a dead spot in the track.
Hi Phil, The MTH electronics definitely have a capacitor installed from the factory. Just pick one up from the track and it will take a few seconds before the sound and lights turn off. I'm not an electronics guru, but I'm wondering why the stock cap couldn't be replaced by a bigger one or could you even put another inline between the track power pickup and the board? Either way it seems a lot simpler than doing the fabricating and machining to me.
Johnny. The stalling due to issues with the wireless drawbar solder connections cause a total stop. - not just a momentary one a cap could deal with. Having lateral forces on small soldered pins just isn't good design.
Keystoned Ed posted:Johnny. The stalling due to issues with the wireless drawbar solder connections cause a total stop. - not just a momentary one a cap could deal with. Having lateral forces on small soldered pins just isn't good design.
I can understand that.
Jonathan, I am not an electronic engineer either but I read elsewhere on this forum that those caps do not power the motor in case of a momentary loss of power. So adding a larger one wouldn't help. To have capacitors as back up power the decoder must have a port or terminal for the caps to hook up to. You can't put the caps across the input power because it would filter out the DCC. When the square wave drops to 0 volts the cap would discharge their voltage which is exactly what the user wouldn't want. I'm not sure what it would do to the DCS signal but my guess is it would degrade it.
The newest ESU Loksound Decoders have a port or terminal for capacitors called Power Packs that will power the locomotive through dirty track. Unfortunately, it looks like they may be expensive as their smaller HO unit is lists for $57. The larger unit (the Maxi) has 5 times the capacitance. I think we discussed this on another thread. Anyway, it would have been nice if MTH had designed this option into their system but, (and I am just guessing here) that they would have had to change a lot on their boards to accommodate it and they probably felt that most of their customers don't want that option so it wasn't worth it to them financially. I'm not knocking them in any way. I am very appreciative that MTH has offered the upgrade kits. I just finished my first upgrade in 11 years and it was almost like getting a new locomotive. It has the same whistle as the locomotive in your video. She runs great and since she has the old fashioned tether she should run great for a very long time.
Hudson J1e posted:Jonathan, I am not an electronic engineer either but I read elsewhere on this forum that those caps do not power the motor in case of a momentary loss of power. So adding a larger one wouldn't help. To have capacitors as back up power the decoder must have a port or terminal for the caps to hook up to. You can't put the caps across the input power because it would filter out the DCC. When the square wave drops to 0 volts the cap would discharge their voltage which is exactly what the user wouldn't want. I'm not sure what it would do to the DCS signal but my guess is it would degrade it.
The newest ESU Loksound Decoders have a port or terminal for capacitors called Power Packs that will power the locomotive through dirty track. Unfortunately, it looks like they may be expensive as their smaller HO unit is lists for $57. The larger unit (the Maxi) has 5 times the capacitance. I think we discussed this on another thread. Anyway, it would have been nice if MTH had designed this option into their system but, (and I am just guessing here) that they would have had to change a lot on their boards to accommodate it and they probably felt that most of their customers don't want that option so it wasn't worth it to them financially. I'm not knocking them in any way. I am very appreciative that MTH has offered the upgrade kits. I just finished my first upgrade in 11 years and it was almost like getting a new locomotive. It has the same whistle as the locomotive in your video. She runs great and since she has the old fashioned tether she should run great for a very long time.
Hi Phil,
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining that for me. It also explains some odd behavior I would see where my MTH engine would sometimes stop at slow speeds on dead frogs, but the sounds kept going. My experience in DCC with TCS and ESU has been fantastic. They will indeed, as you know, keep running right across that dead/dirty spot. I wasn't aware that MTH didn't do this in O because their HO models do have capacitors on the motor side. At least I believe they do based on testing on dirty track I've done. Either way, it would be great if MTH would make this change. If not, I may consider ripping proto sounds out and replacing with DCC. I simply have no problems with my capacitor equipped DCC engines.
Thanks for the education
The good news: My MTH PS3 6 vertical pin wireless drawbars arrived last week and I replaced the factory original 45mm drawbar on my MTH 2 rail J with a 40mm one. The cab's deck plate now sits properly on the tender deck and the closer tender coupling improves the overall appearance of the model. If one wants still closer coupling I believe you could use MTH's 35mm drawbar but you'd have to shorten the deck plate slightly to clear the tender's water legs. For now I'll stick with the 40mm length.
The not so good news: Using an ohmmeter I found the root cause of my intermittent electrical pickup (the locomotive would randomly stall) issues wasn't with the wireless drawbar but with the right side sprung plunger driver pickups. (on new PS3 J the left side drivers are common to the chassis, the right side drivers are insulated by a split axel). When a driver was splayed out all the way to one side there was an open circuit on the plunger pickup for that axel – same for all 3 drivers used for right rail pickup. Because the plungers are deep down in the frame I couldn't see why the failure occurs, but given that it happens on all 3 drivers (the geared driver doesn't have pickup plungers) I conclude it's just a design limitation. At that point I decided to ignore the warrantee and fabricatedphosphor bronze wipers to run on the back side of drivers 1,2 & 4. To make the wipers I soldered .032 the bronze wire to the top side of 2 printed circuit boards and attached the boards to the chassis using the existing axel grease access screws. After some head scratching it took all of about 2 hours to make and install the wipers. After months of delay - the MTH J now runs very smoothly. As this will be an "visiting test" locomotive on my PRR railroad, once I settle on a passenger train length I'll probably add some weight in the boiler to improve the J's tractive effort (like my friend N&W Chris has done). I wouldn't want to upset visiting railroad history buffs with a Pennsy T1 outperforming a N&W J on mountain grades.
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I am truly happy that your engine is now working Ed. However, that does lead me to ask if the drawbar design is getting bashed when it's not that bad? I have read posts where guys won't buy any engine that has them. Yet, I have several engines (5 or 6?) that have them and they all perform great. None have failed for me. Just our grandson's with abuse.
So I would state again for readers, please handle the drawbar delicately. I only disconnect them when I have too.
John Sethian posted:These photos and drawings show how I wired up my MTH Mikado:
The stock MTH pickup (in 2 rail mode) which is a plunger pushing on the bearing. Not the axle directly. In other words too many electrical joints
The spring does not conduct electricity that well (I measured > 25 ohms) so it quickly distorts due to heat
I replaced the spring with one made of phosphor bronze
And I added a wiper to the back side of the tire. This is very easy to do
I added some more contacts, as shown. "JDS" are my intials
I have had no problems with this loco once I made these mods
John, Actually Engine frame is connected to tender frame via the metal spring pin that runs along the drawbar for the wireless set up, and actual draw bar for tether. Like your mod for Right side. If your running 2 Rail only, why not repurpose the Red center rail wire to become Chassis ground in the engine. You than go into the engine and move the red wire from drawbar to the chassis ground wire nut inside the tender. You than have a hardwire ground connection between engine and tender. G
GGG wrote: "John, Actually Engine frame is connected to tender frame via the metal spring pin that runs along the drawbar for the wireless set up, and actual draw bar for tether. "
Since my measurements were made directly with both a digital multi meter and applying track voltage (via a short section of rail) to individual wheels, it shows how really tenuous the MTH connections are. Your suggestion for hardwiring will work fine, but I prefer wiping the tires as I can see exactly what is going on. And more importantly, I don't have to remember anything!
John Sethian posted:GGG wrote: "John, Actually Engine frame is connected to tender frame via the metal spring pin that runs along the drawbar for the wireless set up, and actual draw bar for tether. "
Since my measurements were made directly with both a digital multi meter and applying track voltage (via a short section of rail) to individual wheels, it shows how really tenuous the MTH connections are. Your suggestion for hardwiring will work fine, but I prefer wiping the tires as I can see exactly what is going on. And more importantly, I don't have to remember anything!
I agree it is tenuous. But your mod still leaves you with no ground from the engine making it to the tender (other than that spring wire MTH uses on the drawbar). Having both right side and left side track power picked up reliably from both engine and tender ensures continuity of power.
Unfortunately the tender continuity is further complicated by insulated bushings on the left side of one of the tender trucks So chassis ground only comes from one truck. Your wipers helps. I am just saying it is another method to ensure better continuity between engine and tender for pure 2R operation. G
In addition to the left rail wipers on the drivers, I added a micro plug ground wire between the engine and tender - you can barely make it out in the photos I've posted. Cheap insurance and very easy to install.
GGG
The fact that the chassis ground only comes from one tender truck is an altogether different problem, which only further compounds the issue of tenuous electrical contacts. That is why I added those wipers on the tender trucks. In some sense, I wire my MTH locos like a traditional 2 rail loco: tender picks up from one side, loco from the other.
"Having both right side and left side track power picked up reliably from both engine and tender ensures continuity of power." That is indeed true, and I agree with you. But I have not found it necessary. Just adding high integrity electrical contacts works fine for me.
John Sethian posted:Just adding high integrity electrical contacts works fine for me.
We are still discussing trains, right? 
Need to make a correction to earlier posts about the length of the PS3 (6 vertical pin) wireless drawbar. The factory drawbar on the MTH J is 45mm long. The better sized one for improved appearance and for the folding deck plate to ride on the tender deck is 40mm long one. I've added pickup wipers on the J and performance is much improved - BUT it is extremely sensitive to dirt collected on the drivers. Before running it I usually clean the drivers by running it on a paper towel with a few drops Goo Gone on it. You wouldn't believe the black crud that comes off!
I did a review on an MTH PRR J1 years ago. It was the only MTH steamer I have had my hands on. I have looked at others at shows.
One weakness in my opinion on the one I had and a bunch of others made by Mfg aimed primarily at 3 rail was the side rods. These are the rods that connect the drivers to each other. On prototypes an typical O Scale models, these rods have a joint at each wheel. These jointed rods allow the center drivers to move side ways in one direction while the end drivers move sideways in the other direction to allow the loco go around sharper curves. The MTH J1 I saw and The weaver diecast C1 and 2-8-0 all have solid piece side rods. when the front drivers moves to one side, they force the rear driver set in the opposite direction. They form a rigid parallelogram with the end driver axles.
This is a disadvantage on model railroads where are curves are often much sharper than prototype. The J1 I had to test required 72 inch radius and it struggled. I have a Max Grey version that will go around 54 inch radius.
Thanks for sharing all this information. I will be printing all this information to share with the DMRRC Members.
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John:
Where'd you get the phosphor-bronze springs. I have an MTH Hudson I'd like to switch the springs on before they start giving me issues
Hey Matt, you guys are scaring me so much maybe I should tear mine apart too????
I have so much else to do that I'll have to wait until they act up. I'm modifying G scale cars to get along!
I run large Atlas O 2 rail switches and the frogs are not powered. My engines run good so far? So maybe it's just that I got lucky on the model selection by the looks of it? I drop wires to both sides of the switches so the engines don't have to carry high amps across power districts.
I did have an old early 90's? MTH Allegheny that I added wipers to. Back then they were DC only. The engine picked up one side and the tender picked up the other rail. That sputtered and stalled backing into sidings over unpowered frogs. Now it's upgraded and fine.
I have a newer PS2 Pacific, PS2 and PS3 Dreyfus Hudsons, 2 Alleghenies, an 0-4-0 A5, a Texas type 2-10-4, and then a ton of their 6 axle diesels. I can see them getting some wrong. I did see some that the wiring needed correcting in 2 rail mode to get all wheel (or the most) pickup.
Maybe wiring on older layouts causes havoc on the engines draw? I run with the smoke on so I'm sure I'm drawing decent power to see something by now as others report?
https://www.youtube.com/user/unifrax5/videos
I just recently repaired a 2R MTH PS-3 J. Attached some photos. The primary culprit here was an improperly formed connector at the engine drawbar connection that allowed the wire to come up and out. In this case the drawbar data wire that will definitely give you issues. I also hard wired this for 2R operation. Simple reversible process. Adding ground wire to engine that goes across what would be the 3rd rail pickup wire (not used in 2 rail) and making that wire go to chassis ground in the tender.
The plungers where all good with 0 resistance reading and this engine has solid axle pickups on tender and engine for right wheels. G
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I just can't help but wonder why MTH chose not to put a capacitor on the motor side like they do in HO. The MTH HO steam engines perform flawlessly over dirty track and dead frogs whereas cheaper options without a keep-alive capacitor will stall. Why didn't they keep that design in O? I run capacitors in N, HO, and S and I never have issues with stalling. It is literally a thing of the past. I'm honestly thinking the best thing to do might be to leave the MTH electronics to drive the smoke and lights, but put in a 2nd decoder like SoundTraxx, ESU, QSI, or TCS with a keep-alive capacitor wired to the motor and speaker. That way you'd retain the smoke and lights, but get better operation and sound. Just a thought...
Probably because those capacitors are very expensive. The smaller ESU smaller capacitor is $42 at Tony's. Imagine how much the larger O scale version will add to the ever increasing prices of O scale locomotives. Also O scale has a much more "captured" audience. They we are hooked and not going anywhere. Especially the guys who like 2 rail stuff. Where is the competition for MTH 2Rail? Excluding the high end companies it's Sunset and that's it and Sunset doesn't come with sound and command control. So is Sunset really in the same arena as MTH?
In HO, MTH can easily lose a customer to one of the other manufacturers so they had better make sure their products are very good. That's their motivation for adding stuff like capacitors in HO.
That is not what we are fixing here. This is not an issue of loss of AC, it is an issue of data communication between tender board and boiler board, and it is the issue of less effective means to transmit chassis ground from engine to tender when in 2R mode. Choice because of 2R-3R capability. You would not see this in 3 rail operations, only 2 rail. So this mod just makes chassis ground a wire connection like it is in 3 Rail mode. G
I have one engine with driver plungers, a Lionel Dreyfuss Smithsonian Hudson. It is reserved for display. I have had wipers on some passenger cars and they wore grooves in the back sides of the wheels. These are all gone now...couldn't handle the squeaking, despite using conductive grease.
I also wish that MTH used sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods. My brass two rail steam with these features just "floats" over dips and less than perfect track, in addition to the better performance on tighter radius curves identified above.
GGG - When my MTH PS3 J stalls on perfectly straight clean track it will only restart if I gently push either a tender truck or the locomotive driver sideway (against the rail). -then it lurches to a start. I've installed a temporary jumper between the engine frame and the tender frame and it helps - but stalls still occasionally happen. My conclusion is that the issue isn't the drawbar connection or PS3 connections since it restarts when I move the loco (or tender) on the rail. I've polished the driver and tender treads until they shine - still intermittent pickup. The only think I can think of at this point is to add wipers on the tender trucks for all wheel pickup. Do you have any tips I may not have thought of?
Ed - I think I have the same problems. Mine has scale wheels, Lobaugh drivers, and all tender wheels are fitted with wipers for both rails. I don't operate it often; it needs a factory reset, but I have noticed that it operates as if the track were dirty and it were an All Nation Diesel with sintered wheels. Maybe it is time to give up on DCS and go to a Tsunami or something.
I have 2 of the more recent J engines. One has worked flawlessly and the other has exhibited all of the issues described in the previous posts. In trying to work it out, I even fried a board by touching something I was not supposed to with a piece of metal. When the engine returned, it still had the same problems on the layout.
I noticed that the front tender trucks were very, very tightly attached to the frame. Thinking that maybe the wheels may not be contacting the rails as well as they could, I decided to pop the shell off and loosen the screw that holds the front trucks on. To do this the board above the truck screw needed to be loosened to make room for the screwdriver for the trucks. So, I put it all back together and it has run perfectly ever since. Now I don't know if unscrewing and moving the board over and back "fixed" a connection there, or if better contact on the rails by the front tender wheels was the fix.
The next time I have the shell off of the engine, I will connect the wire to the frame as others have mentioned. I have done this on my other earlier MTH J engines but forgot to do it on the latest. The others have NCE DCC installed and will work even without the tender attached.
I'm sure we'll all keep posted.
Keystoned Ed posted:GGG - When my MTH PS3 J stalls on perfectly straight clean track it will only restart if I gently push either a tender truck or the locomotive driver sideway (against the rail). -then it lurches to a start. I've installed a temporary jumper between the engine frame and the tender frame and it helps - but stalls still occasionally happen. My conclusion is that the issue isn't the drawbar connection or PS3 connections since it restarts when I move the loco (or tender) on the rail. I've polished the driver and tender treads until they shine - still intermittent pickup. The only think I can think of at this point is to add wipers on the tender trucks for all wheel pickup. Do you have any tips I may not have thought of?
I would start at tender and remove all screws that provide power from right and left wheels and make sure all coating off and good contact between wheels and end of wire. The truck screws to tender chassis too. This may have been Chris's issue. At engine same, except you need to check each plunger spring and wire too.
Verify that the 6 wires in the drawbar connectors are tight and fully seated on both ends. G
I hope that the person at MTH who is responsible for the circuit design for 2R engines is reading this. I think that MTH needs to relook at this. I know that traditional O Scalers do not think much of the insulated axle used on 2R steam, but anything that would eliminate the use of a hidden plunger that has a spring that is sensitive to excess amperage can't be the best that they can do. The old and tried and true way of insulating wheels on one side should be a consideration. They should be able to design running gear so that the piston rods exit the center of the cylinders also. A "Collectors Edition" with sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods, perhaps at a modest price premium, would make a good product great. My opinion.
You want a USH mechanism with a die cast boiler and tender. Sunset does everything you want in brass.
I can identify - I like die cast for some reason. I want a die cast PA and E-7. I can make my own mechanism. I do have the MTH Hudson with all the things mentioned above fixed.
I wonder - could it be that you would come out ahead buying a Sunset and an MTH of the same thing, then eBaying the leftover parts? Sometimes parts sell for more than the entire model would.
Hudson5432 posted:I hope that the person at MTH who is responsible for the circuit design for 2R engines is reading this. I think that MTH needs to relook at this. I know that traditional O Scalers do not think much of the insulated axle used on 2R steam, but anything that would eliminate the use of a hidden plunger that has a spring that is sensitive to excess amperage can't be the best that they can do. The old and tried and true way of insulating wheels on one side should be a consideration. They should be able to design running gear so that the piston rods exit the center of the cylinders also. A "Collectors Edition" with sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods, perhaps at a modest price premium, would make a good product great. My opinion.
Can you explain what you mean a little better? An isolated axle is bad, but an isolated wheel isn't? MTH actually uses isolated wheels on the tender side, and I think the opposite is better. What specifically are you talking about?
Seems to me the plunger functions well when new and if the engine is not over loaded. If the metal chosen is wrong and a better material is needed that is an easy mod. The hidden springs are easily accessible and easily tested via continuity between right wheels.
I would have stuck with the 10pin vice 6 pin for PS-3, that would have left room for the left wheel ground being wired.
For the tender if they went with an insulated axle both tender trucks could also pick up ground with metal bearings in side frame, and both could also get right wheel with axle contacts. Redundancy would greatly enhance operation. Especially for drawbar data between engine and tender. You could run 2 wires for data with a 10 pin. Of course some may not like esthetics.
But if you are a pure 2 Railer, the engine can be easily modified for 2R wired continuity rather easily. Granted an engine may have some bugs, but there are a lot of 2 Railers running these with no issues. G
I would prefer the engine and tender electrical scheme that is found in USH and PSC engines, with no inaccessible plunger, and in fact no plungers at all. The USH and PSC system has been well proven over several decades. I am a two railer with USH and PSC engines, as well as a number of MTH engines. At one time MTH did use the "USH" system. I have an old MTH 2 rail Empire State Hudson and it still runs flawlessly, although it does not have sound. I also have a newer MTH 2 rail Dreyfuss Hudson, with the large plug, that has both communication problems with a low DCS signal, and also problems just staying "lit". I have the same Dreyfuss Hudson issues as the previous poster. Disassembling a painted engine to "get at" a plunger makes me reluctant to tackle this, so the engine ends up as a hangar queen. I have also noticed that the wheels on my Dreyfuss get a lot dirtier a lot quicker.
I have been considering buying an articulated in 2 rail, with candidates either the N&W "A" or a UP Challenger, but wonder what either of these would do to my layout due to their weight. MTH could save a lot of money in shipping if they investigated ways to make their engines a little lighter. Note I said "a LITTLE"!. I have a Sunset B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4 that cannot outperform my MTH B&O Q-3 Mike!
I do not see a problem with using die cast vs brass for construction, although with the heavier die cast engine I keep a close watch for track issues with my ME track.
The mistake they made, other than deviating from standard 2-rail polarity, was in insulating drivers at the axle. That means that side rods and valve gear also have to be insulated, and it makes things difficult for machinists who want better 2-rail flanges and tread profiles.
I use plungers all the time for pickup - plain old brass rod against steel wheels seems to work for about a thousand hours of actual around the layout operation. I routinely replace MTH Diesel wipers with plungers.
I only own a SP Daylight. No major issues considering the price.
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When 2 railing an MTH "3/2" loco that was made for 3 rail I insulate the modified 2 rail drivers at the rims with 10 thou fish paper pressed between the new machined steel tires and the modified driver centers that are reduced in width to a scale profile. Because of the odd split axles on MTH 3/2 locos and the insulated axle bushings in the frame on the right side of the model I install the insulated drivers on the right side of the loco (reverse of standard practice) and insulate the left side of the tender trucks. The un-insulated drivers then conduct power through their axles and the non-insulated bronze axle bearings into the frame. I do not rely on the spring loaded plungers in the loco frame for power pickup. My conversions have no power pickup problems that I have been made aware of by the owners of my conversions.
IMO MTH would have done 2 rail modelers a favor by following conventional 2 rail practice and not trying to re-design the concept of a 2 rail steam loco.
Joe Foehrkolb
Why doesn’t one just get rid of all the electronics then use the common side on the left of the loco to collect power, an insulated drawbar made of fiberglass, etc, and insulate the left side of the tender trucks with the tender chassis and right side of the trucks grounded. This approach does not require wipers at all, except maybe on the tender trucks to improve contact.
I can identify with Phil's grandson's experiment with the 54 and 49.5 radius and Sunset steam. I did something similar several years ago at Christmas and had a track around the tree in which I tested one of my Sunset 4-8-4s. It looked a little silly with the overhang, but it negotiated the curve without derailing etc. Good luck and welcome to 2-Rail!
