MTH 4000 CAPACITY & 3 RAIL LAYOUT

Someone else may be able to give you a better answer (experience), but a good starter question would be, since you're using a Z-4000, what do the ammeters read when you're running that many trains off it?

---PCJ

Are the lights in your passenger cars  LEDs? If not, I would consider swapping them out.

Th Z4000 will protect itself from overload.  At shows, we run 2 or more trains on each loop and, while the Z4000 may indicate above 9 amps per loop, it handles the load for hours.  Once the load exceeds 10A, the transformer trips it's breaker.  In short, don't worry about your operation.  The Z4000 will let you know if a second transformer is needed.

IronMan1,

   Always over power your layouts for expansion and for best running results.  From the sounds of it, I recommend adding at least an old ZW.  Remember to add a 10 Amp resettable Breaker bank between the old ZW and TIU to safe guard your layout.

Scotty we need more power!

PCRR/Dave

The new Train Room/Bar Power Station.

ironman1 posted:

I follow the forum daily, and add my 2 cents worth, once in awhile. I've seen many pictures showing or mentioning multiple transformers utilized, on layouts humbler than mine. Since I built my layout over 10 years ago it's only been powered by 1 MTH 4000 transformer. The layout is a 13' x 24' around the room layout (2 interconnected main lines with a folded loop) with an inner island reversing loop and small yard and a few sidings. I run DCS (1 TIU & no AIU), and Legacy. I have some signal issues here and there, due to earlier DCS misunderstandings never corrected, but overall it runs fine.

Lately I've been running 2 large passenger engines, a 4-6-4 & 2-8-4 with 6 lighted passenger cars each, on one level loop. The second loop 3% grade, I'm double heading 2 N&W Y6B's pulling a 30 car coal drag plus caboose with a Y6B pushing. Smoke units running, but not all the time on all trains.

So, here's the question, am I overtaxing the 1 MTH 4000 transformer, TIU, etc. running 5 or 6 engines with the corresponding trains in tow? Most of the time I'm just watching them run & this is probably the most I run at any given time for probably less than a hour.

Thanks,

Joe

I don't get it either.  I have a 6x12 right now.   Two mains of an outer square and the inside a twisted dog bone (eh??) I run all kinds of engines.   From PW to LCP with two cw80s. One on each loop.   I have the Wabash fallen flags set with 5 incan lit passenger cars that runs fine.  Also running a few buildings on one of the cw80s.  But those big guns sure look cool!!! 

Jim 

Thanks for the replies. I'll admit to being 100% illiterate to the theories of electricity. In high school when we started talking about amps, voltage, resistance and ohms law, I overloaded and had a melt down! I'm envious of anyone who understands the principles. I plug it in, and open the throttle, basically.

So far, I haven't overloaded the Z4000, but of course now that I've taken my head out of the sand, I'll overload the thing next time I power up. I'll pay attention to the amp meter on that next run, and post the readings. It's probably good that the smoke unit fan motors, in a few of my favorite Legacy engines need replacing, my next attempted project.

PCRR/Dave is probably one of the guys I was thinking of when I started this post. If he can't run at least 20 engines, all with the smoke units on high, nobody can! I know, more power is better than less, so I guess it can't hurt, can it?

Oh, by the way, I did start with an original Lionel ZW with the MTH recommended Radio Shack fast blow fuse in line, between the TIU and transformer. Ironically, when ever a derailment or short circuit occurred, it worked flawlessly every time except once. There were many shorts over the first couple years, mostly backing through switches. That one time it didn't work as expected, the fuse blew and then the metal strip fused back together within the fuse. Before I could clear the derailment, poof! Fried TIU :-(

I purchased my Z4000, shortly after, and a new TIU. So far so good.

Guys, It's not the number of trains you are running, but rather the number of amps those trains are pulling. You have some excellent advice from Railride, Engineer-Joe and PCRR/Dave. 10 amps is indeed the magic number for either variable post of a Z4K. If you try to exceed 10 amps, the Z4K will shutdown, protecting itself. The easiest answer is to shut the smoke units down, or go with fewer lighted cars. If you like long lighted passenger trains, consider changing the cars over to LEDs. It's more involved, but the benefits are substantial. I just changed a 12 car set of heavyweights over to LEDs and cut the draw by 50%. GunrunnerJohn  can help you with getting the components you need.

Chris

LVHR

I think we are looking at it as number of tracks and not number of trains.  Maybe those guys with all the ZWs and Z4Ks are running multiple high amp trains on one powered section?   Even at that you only have 10 amps per section right?   I reckon all of my trains pull under 5amps seeing that is what the CW80 is rated.

I ran the trains for about 10 mins last night after reading the first few replies here. Like I mentioned, I have 2 basic loops, each powered by one side of the Z4000. The outside loop was pulling just over 2 amps with one 5 lighted passenger cars (not LED's), no smoke. The inner, longer run loop, pulling just over 3 amps, 2 legacy Y6B's, smoke on high, double heading 30 car mixed freight with 1 lighted caboose. This is half the load I mentioned previously as the maximum I normally run. Based on the replies above, I guess that is well within my transformers capability. The next test will be running twice as much.

 I never run continuously for longer than an hour. How much of a factor would the length of time running affect the capacity?

 What I worry about for longer run times may not be considered by some here. Some of the plastic passenger cars with real bulbs inside get hot. They can run fine for a short length of time. If for some reason they sit on powered track and not moved, that heat can build up inside. It usually goes unnoticed as nothing happens. Try touching the tops of those cars and see how hot they are.

 Does anyone here leave the toaster on the counter and turn it on constantly with no toast inside?  

 The real thing about this that bugs me, is the wasted energy. All that heat is really what? Just a waste. How many decades have LEDs been around? How much do they cost? Why in the world aren't they in every toy car?

 I know that the first white LEDs didn't look very good for old era stuff. That's not the case anymore. That hasn't been the case for a long time.

Engineer-Joe posted:

 What I worry about for longer run times may not be considered by some here. Some of the plastic passenger cars with real bulbs inside get hot. They can run fine for a short length of time. If for some reason they sit on powered track and not moved, that heat can build up inside. It usually goes unnoticed as nothing happens. Try touching the tops of those cars and see how hot they are.

 Does anyone here leave the toaster on the counter and turn it on constantly with no toast inside?  

 The real thing about this that bugs me, is the wasted energy. All that heat is really what? Just a waste. How many decades have LEDs been around? How much do they cost? Why in the world aren't they in every toy car?

 I know that the first white LEDs didn't look very good for old era stuff. That's not the case anymore. That hasn't been the case for a long time.

That I agree with 100%!!   All of the lights in my house are LED.   Along with trains I also do a huge Christmas display.   Computer controlled light show.   I do understand how to balance and limit amps.  As there are channels on the outputs that have limits, just like transformers.   Take out one 25 watt incan, now I can run 5 LED bulbs that are brighter in its place!   

My latest run, outside loop was pulling just over 4 amps with two passenger trains, 5 lighted  cars each (not LED's), 1 engine full smoke. The inner, longer run loop, pulling nearly 4 amps, 2 legacy Y6B's, smoke on high, double heading 30 car mixed freight with 1 lighted caboose.

So just to be clear, with both handles set to 18 volts, each controlling 1 loop with the trains mentioned above, I'm fluttering just above 4 amps each side, running, non stop for 1 hour. So am I well within the capacity of the Z4000?

Thanks,

Joe

ironman1 posted:

My latest run, outside loop was pulling just over 4 amps with two passenger trains, 5 lighted  cars each (not LED's), 1 engine full smoke. The inner, longer run loop, pulling nearly 4 amps, 2 legacy Y6B's, smoke on high, double heading 30 car mixed freight with 1 lighted caboose.

So just to be clear, with both handles set to 18 volts, each controlling 1 loop with the trains mentioned above, I'm fluttering just above 4 amps each side, running, non stop for 1 hour. So am I well within the capacity of the Z4000?

Thanks,

Joe

Absolutely! 

That's great! Thanks for the confirmation. Since I'm not taxing the layout, I'll be holding off on the LED upgrades to the passenger cars, for now. Just having fun and trying to get some of those pesky smoke units working!

I've been running this as more or less a max for years, with this probably on the high side. I'm constantly rotating, so sometimes even less. Most of the time I run trains is when my Grandson comes over, since he's 3 he's mostly watching but he loves the crew and tower talk, blowing the whistles and horns and minimal controlling while I supervise. Other times I'm just running one train looping around, while switching some cars on a siding.