I want to replace the wheel with no flange on a 6 wheel diesel truck. It is an MTH Premier ATSF 2600. This engine derails A LOT due to not having a flange. Rather annoying. Looking at it... it seems the wheels are pressed on the axel. I do not own a press. I'd like to get a replacement wheel set but I'm unsure where to start looking. I don't want a set I have to use a press to install. I don't mind destroying the current to get them off.
Thoughts?
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Santa Fe Jim has done this same up-grade on his new MTH Alco PA consist (A-B-B-A). Hopefully he'll chime in and tell you how he did his. I thought he already posted it here on the 3RS Forum, but I can't seem to locate it quickly.
I want to replace the wheel with no flange on a 6 wheel diesel truck. It is an MTH Premier ATSF 2600. This engine derails A LOT due to not having a flange. Rather annoying. Looking at it... it seems the wheels are pressed on the axel. I do not own a press. I'd like to get a replacement wheel set but I'm unsure where to start looking. I don't want a set I have to use a press to install. I don't mind destroying the current to get them off.
Thoughts?
I just recently looked at mine to see if there was any way to 2 rail the same engine. These center cabs have a unique truck. I saw no way to remove the wheels, but I'm not done trying.
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NWSL posts this:
MTH/Lionel/Weaver/Atlas/KLine 3-rail to 2-rail wheels/axles KIT
These component kits enable conversion of 3 rail “trapped-axle” design (early diesels from China for various importers/brands—with 3/16” axle) and newer “removable bottom cover” units to be converted to 2-rail and choice of wheels, including P:48. Can be VERY difficult to remove original wheelsets; electrical pickup requirements must be addressed by the installer. PULLER V (#75-4) was designed to remove these difficult to access ‘no clearance’ wheels, arbor press (such as the SENSIPRESS+) or bigger required to reassemble with new wheels.
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What I need to do is basically the same thing as you except that I would need to work out a 2 rail pickup, and the wheels I would need have to be insulated.
If you can figure how to remove the wheels without destroying them, you can have my 3 rail wheel sets. I also have a dummy 2600 class that I haven't looked at. It may be easier to remove the wheels from the dummy than the powered unit.
MTH may have changed the truck design in the later offerings. I'd like to see what Santa Fe Jim came up with and if his trucks were different than the earlier PA trucks.
I have a neat NWSL puller that generally does the trick - but the factory press-fits on earlier trucks requires a real press, and some sort of support under the opposite side of the truck block. For those I use a rather large drill press and a bunch of steel or brass blocks.
Here are some pictures of the truck. The truck block is one piece. It seems that when it was assembled, the brass gear that gets driven by the motor was dropped in then the axle was pressed through and then the wheels were pressed on. If I am wrong, please correct me.
Trevize - If you can come up with the wheels, removing the wheels without flanges shouldn't be that hard. They are plastic. (I found that out tonight.) You would need to press on the new flanged wheels. I thought I could give you flanged wheels from my trucks, but the flanged wheels have gears.
bob2 - Any thoughts from what you are looking at?
I have 12 wheels that I purchase from MTH at the time that the first PS-1 Alco PA's came out. They have traction tires mounted. They have a slight camfer on the inner edge of the axle hole. I was intending to use a vice to press them on the axles but never did because I didn't know how to stabilize the floating axle. I was and still am worried that the floating axle with flanged wheels would cause more derailments than I need(ed).
I would be interested to know how to spring, or otherwise, stabilize these axles so the truck tracks well and still maintains traction.
Trevise -
Three things that you need in order to replace the "blind" axle with flanged wheel sets.
1. A wheel puller. I got mine from Frank Timko. You can email him at FTinko@sbcglobal.net or call him at 937-429-1261. You use that to remove the plastic wheels.
2. Replacement wheels & alxes. I got mine from Norttwest Short Line. www.NWSL.com. Part # 8872-4.
3. A C-Clamp to press the new wheels onto the axle. Wheel press NOT REQUIRED.
I used a cheap (under $10) digital caliper from Harbor Freight to get the gauge correct on the replacment axles.
You have seen the before pictures. Here are some after's.
GOOD LUCK.
Trevise -
Here is the link to the earlier post that Hot Water was trying to locate.
https://ogrforum.com/topic/closing-the-g-a-p
When the link loads, you may need to scrool to the top.
Jim -
Nice work! I looked back at the last post and you really did a great job.
Were the wheels without flanges plastic on your PA? Just curious because the trucks on the PA and the Center Cab are different. The PA trucks have a longer wheelbase. Also, I'm trying to decide whether 2 railing the Center Cab is worth it.
Trevise -
Three things that you need in order to replace the "blind" axle with flanged wheel sets.
You have seen the before pictures. Here are some after's.
GOOD LUCK.
Does the axle float around in the hole or is it a tight fit? Have some of these style trucks by Lionel as well MTH and the electrical conductivity is horrible on both brands with only 4 wheels per engine not rubber or plastic, plus that hideous overhang on curves.
I bought some MTH 2-rail wheelsets in hopes of converting a Ralking F3 to 2-rail, but never got far. I bent the axle on the one wheelset I tried to take out and not sure about having to remove a wheel from the 2-rail wheelsets in order to make the swap.
It's almost worth it to attempt to cut off the captive block material (holding the wheels in place) and make a cover plate.
Jim -
Nice work! I looked back at the last post and you really did a great job.
Were the wheels without flanges plastic on your PA? Just curious because the trucks on the PA and the Center Cab are different. The PA trucks have a longer wheelbase. Also, I'm trying to decide whether 2 railing the Center Cab is worth it.
Marker, YES they were plastic.
Lima asked: Does the axle float around in the hole or is it a tight fit?
Yes, it flops a bit, but it elminates hideous overhang.
It has been a while, but I routinely replace axle gears on this identical truck block, albeit with scale wheels. Most of the Museum locomotives came from MTH with scale wheels.
I have two-railed a bunch of K-Line Train Masters, both with and without the NWSL kit. Never had any real problems with that. The MTH press- fit, when not involving an insulated axle, is quite tough. But plastic wheels ought to be trivial.
First, if all you are doing is replacing that end blind set, consider finding a Hi- Rail wheelset that matches the other two. Using a scale wheel in that slot is probably going to lead to more problems, not fewer. The larger flanges will aid in tracking, and the extra weight will help almost as much.
You are correct - the axle gear is pressed on at assembly. I have special spacers that enable me to press the new gear on dead-center, prior to re-installing the wheel I pull off for gear replacement.
So: First, find a vise and a couple pieces of steel to support that wheel from behind. Support the opposite end of the truck block on a wood scrap, so you have your hands free. Tap the axle dead-center with a nail set - it will drop out easily if the wheel is plastic.
Do the same with your new Hi Rail wheel set. Just remove one wheel. Slip it in the slot, and re-press. Better to use a drill press - you can feel it better while pressing, and it will press straighter.
Howard:
If you're running this engine as a hi-rail engine, you should go with a hi-rail wheel in the floating spot. The other thought I had was you might want to send the truck blocks out to Joe F. and have him 2-rail them. You could then use the engine as a 2-rail or following the schematic below, you could make your own 2-rail/3-rail hybrid. Basically, using the DPDT switch, you switch the right-hand wheel pickups to either provide the "hot" signa,l or join the "common" signals and engage a pickup roller. This eliminates potential problems with insulated rail operation.
Conversion complete!
First the sacrifice!
Lionel Long Island engine from the 1980s(?). Purchased on craigslist for $1.00.
Youtube video coming of the engine in action over switches and curves.
It used to derail while pulling these cars up the hill. It derails no more!
Nice work John!
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Matt - Good idea, I always think of Joe F. for the steam conversions I have to do. I never thought about diesel conversions. I wouldn't even have to send the engines. I have to contact him and talk some of these things out.
Will MTH not sell us the flanged wheels used on the trucks?
Will MTH not sell us the flanged wheels used on the trucks?
That is correct, MTH does not offer separate wheel/axle sets.
Will MTH not sell us the flanged wheels used on the trucks?
That is correct, MTH does not offer separate wheel/axle sets.
That is unfortunate. Another option might be buying a dummy Williams truck and stripping it for parts. I saw Alco PA and EMD E7 trucks for $27 and they actually have the flanged wheels on both ends of the trucks where they should be.
If I could get the flanged wheels off the remaining truck axles I have I'd give them away free.
Its weird because the non powered truck has the blind wheel in the middle, which doesn't bother me in curves as much as the end ones.
I'll have to get a puller to get the blind ones off the end axles.
Thanks,
Mario
Here are some pictures of the truck. The truck block is one piece. It seems that when it was assembled, the brass gear that gets driven by the motor was dropped in then the axle was pressed through and then the wheels were pressed on. If I am wrong, please correct me.
Trevize - If you can come up with the wheels, removing the wheels without flanges shouldn't be that hard. They are plastic. (I found that out tonight.) You would need to press on the new flanged wheels. I thought I could give you flanged wheels from my trucks, but the flanged wheels have gears.
bob2 - Any thoughts from what you are looking at?
The non-flanged wheels are plastic for a reason.... They flop all over the place and sometimes touch the center rail. Dead short. I had to put the plastic ones back on.
Good afternoon all:
If the group will pardon my resurrecting an old thread, I'd like to know if anyone has made this change lately, and how it went. The locomotive in question is the MTH E44, which is an excellent model, except for the plastic blind wheels. They look ridiculous and sound awful as the motor moves.
I did the research, and the wheel puller / wheel sets are still available from NWSL as mentioned above. I also acknowledge Gregg's potential shorting condition, however my system is powered by overhead catenary with an O63 ruling curve, so the center rail is not a concern. My observations of the E44 on O63 curves do not suggest that a flanged wheelset would be an issue as it might be on lesser curves.
I realize even a flanged wheelset will still move around some, and won;t be perfect, which is OK. Still, if anyone has changed out the plastic blinders for some proper looking (for 3RS anyway) flanged wheels, I'd appreciate hearing how it went. Thank you.
I used a faucet puller from my local hardware store...
https://ogrforum.com/...10#48593297314370410
I also used a spring to hold the axle in place and track well.
Thanks!
-Mario
Mario's link to my old thread had some talk of using a faucet puller but I didn't have any luck with it. I ended up bopping the axles out with a drift punch. I bought a Williams F7 dummy truck and used the axles and wheels out of that, using a drift to remove them and then using a vise to install them to gauge on the MTH truck.
Gentlemen:
Very good, thanks for the tips. Out of curiosity, what is your ruling curve? Has your spring method kept the flanged dummy axle in line? I don't mind that the axle isn't powered, but the flangless axle flopping all over the place looks and sounds ridiculous.
Choosing the wheelset is also a bit of question mark. I am currently looking at the Northwest Shortline model that SantaFeJim pointed out above. I am not that inclined to buy an engine or 'something' just to pirate wheels off of it. I thought of getting some used 'cheap' PS3 engine, as I need a PS3 board as well. That seems rather optimistic though, and probably not cost effective in the end.
I have also used a spring loaded center punch, and it works well. Nice thing about it is it usually puts a little dimple in the end of the axle.
I only run mine at the club, as my home layout has curves that are much to tight for both the trucks and Kadees, but have had no issues with the axles.
A question, before I go after my MTH AS616s: After replacing the blind wheelsets, what do you believe the min radius should be (mine is 36" aka O72)?
Rex:
I have carefully observed the forward truck motion and its blind axle on the E44 around 15smph. Through O63 curves, the blind set does not leave the railhead. (NOTE, the rear blind axle does, but it is also the leading axle in that case, and flops everywhere, at times even on straightaways). While this is not exactly a definitive test, I watched it on many successive loops, with similar results. It is probably a bit risky, but at this time I have enough confidence to proceed with the change.
Take a look at this thread too.
Matt A posted:Take a look at this thread too.
Oh yeah.
I forgot I did that!
https://ogrforum.com/...84#73368898577571584
Used copper as a spring to hold the axle in place.
Thanks, Matt!
-Mario
Pantenary posted:Rex:
I have carefully observed the forward truck motion and its blind axle on the E44 around 15smph. Through O63 curves, the blind set does not leave the railhead. (NOTE, the rear blind axle does, but it is also the leading axle in that case, and flops everywhere, at times even on straightaways). While this is not exactly a definitive test, I watched it on many successive loops, with similar results. It is probably a bit risky, but at this time I have enough confidence to proceed with the change.
As a brief follow-up, I wanted to advise that my confidence was misplaced. Upon acquiring the Williams wheelsets, the facet handle puller from Lowe's, another wheelset as one broke during pulling, and the nylon washers, I re-assembled the E44 trucks. The new flanged axles spun very nice and looked great.
However, I observed very jerky performance in the curves. Further testing reveal that the rear blind axle does not quite fully negotiate O63 curves, but sticks just enough to cause the jerky operation. This is the case in either direction; it is always the trailing truck where the blind axle leads. The forward truck in any case will negotiate the curve smoothly. A re-test with the blind set yielded nice, smooth performance.
So, after all that work, I ended up having to use the blind axles anyway. However, all is not lost, as I learned quite a bit, and saved all the parts for when I have an O72 or better ruling curve. I usually test things a little more thoroughly before setting out on a job like this, but I rather got bit on this one, and feel rather silly. Stuff happens, I suppose.
So, a word to those who may consider blind wheelset replacements on MTH trucks: the MTH E44 (and any locomotive with that similar truck design) will not properly negotiate O63 or less curves with all axles flanged.
Thanks for the warning, Nate.
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