mth dcs with z4000 set up

The TIU is powered either from the auxiliary port on the side, or when power is applied to Fixed Channel #1. The easiest configuration is to simply connect the Z4000 throttles to Fixed #1 and Fixed #2. Connect one loop to each fixed output.

This will allow operation of conventional equipment via the transformer handles and allow operation of Proto-2 and Proto-3 locomotives in command mode. I've used the variable channels before, but actually prefer handles for conventional operation.

I'd also recommend getting Barry's Book on DCS. It provides very thorough coverage of the installation and operation of DCS.

Hope this helps.

Thanks! I assumed it was the track posts to fixed 1 and 2 but thought that the 10v and 14v for fixed voltage were to be used  (accessory posts) thnks for clearing it up  now to work on the AIU accessory box.

Not Seasoned Yet,

   1st I absolutely agree with Matt, before you do anything else purchase Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion Book and the OGR Video Guide to DCS, read Barry's book and let Rich Melvin get you started from the beginning as he instruct you step by step on how to set up and run your DCS, Rich does a great job getting beginners started in this fantastic OGR Video Guide.

You can certainly use the Z4K to run  your DCS, I do recommend purchasing the Radio Shack power supply to power your TIU also.  Rich does a good job of showing this RS power supply in the Video, identify it properly and giving the correct reasons for it's usage.  DCS is a fairly complex remote control system, that takes a little education to use properly, Barry's technical written education is a mandatory part of fully understanding how to set up and run DCS.  There is a lot to learn have fun.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks for your help I will get the book.

Thanks for your help I will get the book.

Just click here!  

Not Seasoned Yet,

    Don't forget the OGR Video guide to DCS, Rich does a great job showing on film exactly how to set up and run DCS, a well worth while purchase for sure.  There is a lot of great educational information on the OGR DCS Video guide, I a highly recommend it, especially to DCS new owners.

PCRR/Dave

If you want to run conventional, and use the remote to give you walkaround control, you must use the variable 1 and 2, and power the TIU through the AUX port, preferably with a wall wart.  Set the handles to 18 volts or more, and just leave them, using the remote to run either conventional (TRK button) or command (ENG button).  If you're running command, use the TRK button to roll the track voltage up to about 18.

If you get the Radio Shack wall wart, get the one that's for 18 or 24 volts and set the switch to 18 volts.  The adapta plug that you pick when you buy it should be the type M.  If you have an old wall wart of 13-18 volts, AC or DC, with at least 500ma capacity, try that.  It's capacity should suffice until you add AIUs; then you'd want 1 amp capacity.

If you don't want walkaround control of conventional, and I can't picture anyone not wanting it, you can use FIXED 1 & 2.

Hi -

I too am a DCS novice but am also considering getting a Z4000 to power my track (right now just one line) because my 7-year old likes the throttles more than the handheld remote.  I have not read Barry's book or seen the video.  Heck, I have barely read the instruction manual.  I'm a guy- what do you expect  However, I have a few questions about what you mention in your post re:  connecting the Z4000 throttle outputs directly to the fixed V channels of the TIU.

1) The TIU manual (I read this part) says to connect the power bricks of the Z500 or Z1000 directly to the TIU and do NOT pass the power through the controller.  What about that?

2) Since the TIU gets its power from Fixed V channel 1, doesn't that need to be fixed V in?  What happens when you vary the V from the Z4000 throttles into fixed V channel 1?  Doesn't that affect the TIU?

3) If #2 is true, can you just provide a constant V power supply through the auxiliary V input of the TIU, or does supplying power through both the accessory power input AND fixed V channel 1 destroy the unit?

4) Is there a minimal V you need to send a DCS signal (5 V) ?  If you use the Z4000 throttles to control voltage to conventional engines on the track, then at some point, when you drop the voltage to slow those conventional trains, you will lose DCS signal to your command engines.  Yes?

5) When running both conventional engines (controlled via the throttle position on the Z4000) and command engines (controlled by the handheld DCS), the command engines will not be able to move any faster than the variable voltage that is controlled by the conventional engines via the Z4000 throttles.  So, it is almost impossible to simultaneously run conventional and command engines on the same track (i.e. a conventional engine can't be crawling around the track at 5-7 V while a command engine is also zipping around.  (In all these scenarios, I am really talking about running the conventional and the command engines on the same track / line)

Maybe all of my questions will be answered in the video, but if you have a moment, I would be interested in your opinion on one or more of these points.

Also, apologies if all of this was answered in some other post(s); I could not find them readily.

Thanks!

- mark

Mark,

Maybe all of my questions will be answered in the video

I don't think there's any "video" that's going to answer all of your questions

I would be interested in your opinion on one or more of these points.

My opinion is that you need an education as regards DCS or you're going to make mistakes and become frustrated.

Also, apologies if all of this was answered in some other post(s); I could not find them readily.

Many, many questions regarding DCS have been asked and answered on the forum, however, you appear to be seeking to be "spoon-fed" the answers. You need to learn by assimilating information in an organized fashion, not by simply asking questions as they occur to you.

You come across as wanting to have others predigest your information. To really understand a subject, it's necessary to do research and learn, and then ask questions for clarification purposes. Both this forum and my book are excellent research tools, with my book being much better organized as regards really mastering the subject.

Everything you need to know about DCS and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

DrTrainDad,

     Mark before you go any further do as Barry has advised, DCS is not a plug & play operation, it is complex and you need to educate yourself on its working prior to trying to run it, or you will become very frustrated.  The DCS when set up properly can run about every different train you might own.  This is why you must learn how to use it.  If you are a visual type learning person definitely invest in the OGR Video Guide to DCS, it really does help beginners get started.  Rich does a great job and starts from the very beginning on how to set up the system.  Get Barry's Book and use it as you build your layout, 99% of all the shotgun questions you are asking will be answered for you using these two learning formats.  Then when something stumps you come back to the OGR forum and the members here will help you with any particular problem you are having. 

PCRR/Dave

DrDad, I'll try to answer your questions, which are good questions that indicate some thought behind them:

1. The "controller" of which MTH speaks is the controller that comes with the Z500 and Z1000.  If you have these transformers, do not use the controllers, since they alter the AC wave form which can give some problems (not dmaaging).  Feed oput out from theb transformer bricks directly into a fixed or variable input.  You cannot operate conventional locos on a track fed by one of these through a FIXED port.

2. Yes.  The best solution is to feed the TIU its internal power through the AUX port, using a wall wart or Radio Shack power supply (R-S part number can be found elsewhere) of 14-18 volts, AC or DC, capable of supplying at l,east 500 milliamps; MTH recommends 1.5 amp capability, because if you want to have AIUs, power needs increase. EDIT:  Check my new post regarding an MTH wall wart power supply that's cheaper

3. When a plug is inserted into the AUX jack, it it supposed to disconnect internal power feed from the Fixed 1 port.  I strongly recommend that you do not use any feeds from a layout transformer connected to AUX.  Use a separate power supply.

4. Not an issue if the separate supply is connected to AUX.

5. Your observations are correct.  Running both at the same time on the same track is tricky, but quite feasible.  Can be done on my layout.  The trick is to put a larger/heavier consist on the conventional loco, so it needs more power.  Assuming your son controls track voltage with the handle, he can definitely slow down and stop both trains.  If you could have separate loops, life would be easier.

I have never looked at any videos in the 14 years I've run DCS.  I did get Barry's book a few years ago, and recommend it highly, as it is a complete reference.

DCS is simple to connect and operate.  My layout is 25 years old.  When DCS was first released, my son gave me a set as a gift.  I simply plopped it into the existing circuitry and have been running ever since

I hope this answered your questions.  If I'm not clear, don't hesitate to re-ask.

RJR,

    Man you were extremely lucky to have retro fit your layout in that manner, with zero problems, 80% of the time it does not happen that way, most people need the education to build and operate DCS layout.

PCRR/Dave

Not lucky.  The layout was designed with adequate wiring from the start, 14 gauge feeder & 12 gauge common bus, based upon experience.  As Frank Maguire pointed out in a recent post, the packets of MTH signals are flows of electrons.  That being the case, wiring that is not really adequate for good power distribution is not good for DCS signal.  When I got DCS, I disconnected the wire between a transformer output and a section of the layout on the control panel, and ran it through the TIU Rev G.  As plug & play as one can get.  Immediately got 10's on the areas powered by fixed circuits.  Only if one wants to get into more elaborate scenarios, does DCS get into some complications.

One should not be scared of DCS.  It is user-friendly and very forgiving.  I do think you are being overly pessimistic in your description of DCS.

Robert,

That being the case, wiring that is not really adequate for good power distribution is not good for DCS signal.

Not exactly.

Solid wire works fine for power. However, for DCS signal, not so much.

RJR,

   I am never pessimistic in my engineering assessments, however I do relate the actual experience myself and most people, have in using DCS, it is only user friendly with the knowledge of how it is to be used.  I say again it is not plug and play by any means.  I do not mean to scare anybody away from DCS, however I do want them to realize what they need to do to fully use the DCS.

PCRR/Dave

most people,

What is the basis for that statement that "most people" have trouble?  The questions raised on the forum are from but a small percentage of DCS buyers.  I believe "most people" probably hook it up per the manual, run a few locos, never upgrade software, and are happy.

Barry, note I used negatives.  Never said if its good enough for power, it's good enough for DCS. 

..and I said, "Not exactly."

RJR,

   If that was true Barry would have only sold 3 books & Rich Melvin would have only sold 2 DCS Video Guides, maybe the people with very small layouts, might get away with your plug and play thinking, however most people using DCS have decent sized layouts, whether they participate on the OGR or not.  Education required.

PCRR/Dave 

So I apologize if my questions were perceived as naive and my remark about guys and instruction manuals was a bit flippant.  I am anything but lazy and I never have been or expected to have been spoon-fed anything in my life.  Truthfully, although I have not read Barry's Book (sorry Mr. Broskowitz), I have thoroughly studied the DCS owners manual and supplemented my knowledge by searching posts to this and other forums.  In fact, it was the post about connecting the Z4000 transformer to the TIU fixed V input that prompted my rather specific questions.

As an aside, as a relative novice to OGR, I would like to say that I am greatly appreciative (and somewhat surprised) by the number of expert individuals who will take the time to respond to posted questions from people such as myself.  I only hope that someday I will have the time and expertise to "pay it forward."  That is usually why, out of consideration for these people,  I try to make my questions specific and only post when I am otherwise unable to find direct answers to my questions through searching the forum archives.

Personally, I do not find DCS to be complex compared to most modern day electronic equipment.  Like anything in life, once you understand how it works, it is fairly simple to work out most any situation.

Anyway, I am grateful to RJR for directly addressing my lingering questions regarding the Z4000 and TIU.  I guess I should have just taken AGHRMatt's word for it.  I apologize for the redundancy if the answers to these questions could have been found in a book (maybe the Z4000 manual.  I don't own one yet, but I guess I could have pulled it on-line) or forum post somewhere else.  Namely:

1) Variable output of Z500 / Z1000 controllers are problematic for TIU (as stated in the DCS manual); Variable output of Z4000 much cleaner and no issues pushing that through the TIU.

2) Auxiliary power for the TIU with an AC adaptor (or Z1000 brick as I use) disables the power feed to TIU electronics through Fixed Channel 1, so no issues about sending variable power through that channel when using auxiliary TIU power.

3) Anyone who understands how DCS works should understand the limitations of running conventional and command engines simultaneously on the same track and there is no "magic wiring schema" that will circumvent this restriction. (I like the idea of loading the conventional engine- didn't think of that).  Not bitter about this since DCS is wonderful and I seldom run a command and conventional engine at the same time anyway.

This is all good news for my son, who wants an "old fashion" train controller. He was dismayed when I confiscated the Lionel CW40 we had with our starter set, for fear that it would fry the Proto boards in our DCS trains.  Guess I will be on the market for a Z4000 now, and maybe I'll pick up Barry's book while I'm at it.

Thanks again.

- mark

I have had no issues running PS2/3 engines off the CW-40, as long as there is another power draw on the tracks (caboose).

Some tests with an ohmmeter indicate that the black of the TIU circuits is always connected to one of the terminals of the AUX jack, which is why it would not be a good idea to use a layout connected transformer to power the AUX port.  There are also other reasons, like losing control if that transformer breaker should open but the TIU inpouts are still getting power (e.g., if you have multiple transformers).

Dave, the manual that comes with  the DCS system is adequate to set up and run an average layout.  But there are some of us who want to learn all the details and to unlock all of the capabilities of the DCS system.

To keep insisting that only an expert can run DCS is to unjustifiably criticize MTH and scare of persons who are considering its acquisition.  Mike Wolf and Barry Broskowitz do not reveal sales figures, but I suspect that the latter's volume of book sales is only a small portion of the former's DCS sales.

Goshawk,

   Using a lighted caboose to trick the CW-40 or 80 is a nice way to go for a while,

 especially if you want to save money when 1st getting into the hobby. I do recommend as your layout grows that you move away from the introductory transformers and pick up at least a Z-1000. 

RJR,

   I do not scare people off from purchasing the DCS, however I do advise them to educate themselves prior to using it, to eliminate the frustration that might occur,

for a 1st time user.  IMO the instructions that come with the DCS are marginal at best, and both Barry's book and the OGR Video guide should be included in the purchase of every new MTH DCS.   

PCRR/Dave

IMO the instructions that come with the DCS are marginal at best, and both Barry's book and the OGR Video guide should be included in the purchase of every new MTH DCS.

I strongly disagree with the last premise.  I just acquired a new Rev L to do some testing.  I would not have done so had I also to bear the cost for Barry's Book and the OGR video. 

The new Rev L came with the 5th edition of the DCS manual.  It is much thicker and appears to be much better than the first edition 14 years ago. 

Thanks! I am working on better transformers. He was expressing worries about running the CW-40 with the ProtoSound boards. From my experience, I don't think that would be an issue.

Robert,

I would not have done so had I also to bear the cost for Barry's Book and the OGR video. 

Are you serious??

Yes, I am.  Having already bought your book (both editions), why would I want to lay out money for a second copy of either edition?

[Anticipated reply:  to aide the BB Retirement Fund.]

And I have no need for a DCS video.  I have never viewed it, and have no reason to at this stage.  Not having seen it, I make not comments on its content..

But the added cost, unless you would be willing to waive your royalty, would have been over $30.

RJR,

   If MTH would include them in the initial DCS purchase, it would probably drive down the over purchase cost of engineering & building your complete DCS/Legacy layout, and if they made them an upon request item, it would still benefit most train hobbyists greatly, believe me most train hobby people would purchase them from the very beginning, given the knowledge & opportunity to do so.  If $30.00 is going to put a big strain on your train hobby, you better find a new and much cheaper hobby, I do not really believe that however, I believe you were trying to make your point.

PCRR/Dave

This is entertaining. Hang on who I microwave some more popcorn!

...

OK, you can continue.

Not $30; rather, $30 times the number of remotes and TIUs.  I would have gotten nothing for the extra $180, except incur the wrath of the environmentalists for filling up local landfills with copies of Barry's book and the video.  Many model RRers, including myself, found the MTH manual adequate to connect DCS to a layout, even a large layout, and have it work well.  These have always been "on request" items, in that they were available to anyone who felt the DCS Manual was not adequate.

I have always found the MTH-provided instructions to be adequate guidance on connecting DCS, on making all its functions operate, on updating system and loco software, on designing wiring systems, etc. 

This is my last post to this thread. 

RJR,

   1st I eat radical Socialist Environmentalist 3 at a time, no business should ever consider anything they gripe about, when conducting business.

You may have missed the "upon request" part of the purchase plan, a hobbiest would only purchase the book and video once, if he wanted too, much to Barry's & Riche's

chagrin, I might add. 

Barry please pass the Caramel Popcorn!

PCRR/Dave