MTH/Lionel Tinplate 260E traction issues. Any ideas?

I had a problem with a 263E some time back.  But, that was because I was trying, in vain, to pull seven passenger cars.   I think you might try to make a traction tire or tires out of a thin piece of electrical tape wound around the drivers.  There is a guy (BenzTrainz) on youtube that has a demonstration of this.  It works, and it works well.  

https://ogrforum.com/...t-if-the-wheels-slip      Here is a solution another forum member posted about for a similiar set . Maybe it will help.

Bob,

Actually, when I first got the engine, I put a piece of electrical tape on there and it worked real well. But I took it off because I thought it would turn into a goopy mess after a while. Perhaps I'll rethink that and check out that video.

Stevin,

I did notice the drag of those sliding shoes last night. Going to try the zip ties as well.  But I'm really surprised that my tried and true method of increasing traction.....adding lead.....was relatively ineffective with this engine. In fact, I just finished working on a Lionel 1872 General (another thread), and it's pulling at least 15 cars with the added weight.  But that engine also has Magnetraction and the wheel surface is not smooth. 

ROGER1 posted:

Bob,

Actually, when I first got the engine, I put a piece of electrical tape on there and it worked real well. But I took it off because I thought it would turn into a goopy mess after a while. Perhaps I'll rethink that and check out that video.

 

Ben, of BenzTrainz, claims they last a very long time and don't deteriorate into a goopy mess.  This guy deserves a look.  He fixes, yes fixes, broken stuff with common household things.  A real bubblegum and paper clip kind of guy.  And, his fixes work.  He does so many amazing things with a little ingenuity and very little money.

Bob,

Definitely going to put one of those back on. Just watched a few of BenzTrainz videos. Impressive. My favorite thing....jury rigging these things to run really well. Lots of fun

my guess is that the dragging shows is probably the issue especially if you say you noticed it as well. I read that the pulling power doubled after remedying this issue. You figure all those shoes rubbing has to be creating alot of extra drag.

I'm going to do it in stages......put the zip ties on and see how that effects it. And then add the tape (remove the Snot first).  I'll report back on what happens.  I'm really tempted to rough up the surface of the front drives wheels a bit. Hesitant as it's irreversible.

   I once,beat the bearings out of a floor jack's wheels to repair my rides idler pulley. I used the washers to hold the undersized balls and drove from Saginaw Michigan north to Sault St. Marie, around Lucas County for two days, then back south to Alpena to grab a new part the Monday afternoon after a long 4th of July weekend.

Pull a rabbit out of a hat and then I'm amazed

I use 2 sided clear tape on one rail to climb a +5% grade & heavy with about any train I own. You can't see it without looking hard. It takes about 2 minutes every year or two to replace it when worn through.

I wonder what 2 sided tape would do for a wheel?

I detack the exposed surface slightly as it is very sticky at first. I use tape from winter window shrink film sealing kits. "Frost King" brand mostly.

Adriatic,

I love your ingenuity. Nice!

Well, I tried the zip tie method on one car (a heavy caboose). It rolled freely before I put it on and seemed the same after. So, I took a flashlight and looked under another car while it rolled towards me on the track. Aside from switches and UCS tracks, I don't see where the sliding shoe "drags" on a rail. So, I don't think that's a solution. On to the "tape".

On my 263's, I've just glued a traction tire on with Walthers Goo. Holds up well and really helps. No groove needed.

Steve

There's something else going on here and I'm still thinking it's the front roller spring. I had Snot on the two rear drive wheels. Took it off one of them and put the "tape tire" on. It improved a bit. Still wheel slip at startup. Put another tape tire on one of the front drive wheels and that actually made it worse. Which made me think about those rollers again. If you put a loose piece of track under the wheels and push upward, there appears to be alot of resistance in the front roller. So, I'm thinking that when the engine in on the track, it's full weight can't be under the wheels. . I went back to tried and true......laid a substantial lead weight on the cowcatcher and most of the slipping stopped.   So......I'll add as much weight as I can in the space over the front pilot. But I'd really like to figure out a good way to relax the tension on the front roller "spring".  It's not an actual spring. It's a strip of stiff metal that acts as a spring.

Roger

Thanks Roger, it was HOT & muggy out, I didn't have much to lose; head north to cooler breezes or rent a room for 4-5 nights at a fleabag motel. I had to use extra grease from the rollers of a self-serve automated car wash track too. Without it I don't think it would have worked as well, hard to say. Shell brand. The real credit goes to my Grandfathers who were both pretty exceptional in most industrial trades. One was a downright artisan I can't hold a candle to.

I think it would be a leaf spring, I've heard them called bow springs by old timers as a kid too. In Detroit it is a leaf, lol.

Heat, adding length (all new metal) or removing metal is the only way I know of to soften spring rates. Heat is iffy; metalurgy changes.. Removing metal will eat tool teeth as most small spring metal is very hard; so I grind, trying to be even across and along both, avoiding heat build up. Doing it in one small area is really shortening it's life expectancy, possible poor fit, etc. but may negate disassembly too. I don't actually have one, mechanical anything is entertaining fun for me

Holding a closed position for a long time may work, but a long time may be years or decades, etc. if it is a high quality spring metal.

Can you zip tie it for testing? do without one? I find some old SW rollers occasionally fall off the center in curves on 0-27{overhang}, I zip tie them so they can't fall and barely make contact. I doubt it will help to just limit travel if  it is the spring rates though.

Oops, all thumbs... You'll likely have to raise it off the rail to work out.

Adriatic,

Alot has gone on since the last post. For one......I realized that the pivot arm for the rear truck was in the wrong place. There are two slots at the back and it was in the lowest (wrong ) one. Had to have come from the factory like that. The effect was to lift the rear drive wheels slightly. Putting it in the correct slot helped but didn't solve it. So then I worked on the springs for the rollers. Had to take the collector apart and bend the "springs" a bit for less tension. Still got wheel slip. So, I hammered it with lead. Put a bit less than 1/4 lb under the front pilot and more at the back under the rear sides of the shell. It all helped. I don't get much slip now.  I also realized that the "tape" traction tire has less grip than the Snot. So I took the tape off and applied more Snot. Curing now.   It's bizarre that an engine as heavy as this would have any slip at all.

I don't think zip tying them will work. These rollers are very small. I found that if I stuff foam under the spring to raise them, I get poor electrical contact.               Not my favorite engine, by a long shot.               But it's improving.

  I wouldn't raise both rollers, just the front one for a test at least. Then just the rear. Relieving pressure on one will put more weighted force on the other. Pressure is key to any electrical contact, it reduces resistance proportionaly. Pickups, even shoes, have a happy balance between drag and best contact to consider.(not coupling shoes, flat power pickups, like Marx ).  Light contact on just one might get you through the switches, that is the only real purpose for two. E g. I have some single pickup MOW bashes and speed is all they need for switches. They can run dead slow on plain track. E.g. Many lit cars have only one roller too.

  Since you've changed the traction balance by changing the hole used, you may want to shift the added weight to the other end or center it. More weight has only improved things for me, never lost any traction unless I upset the balance enough...then I just moved it, vs removed it.

  Also check to see that there is no longer any  hindrance to the loco sitting flat. It should actually be able to climb say a 3% grade approach with loco nose up, cab dipped, & tender still level without any hinderance to the loco sitting flat on the incline.

  The caster angle of the drawbar's vertical tab or coupling post can add lift or down force if leaning forward or to the rear ( / or \ ) This affects balance directionally unless plumb though, so if you are big on switching and reversing, keep that in mind. More angle= more effect.

  I've been trying to resist the urge to suggest roughing the driver treads. I like a pretty wheel, but I've had some slip issues on extremely shiny wheel too. I just folded to the shine and accepted it. BUT it wasn't an awful puller; just wished it pulled two more cars, I don't feel 6 light-medium is unreasonable to expect for any train that comes with 4.

  How about the gauge? Do the wheels sit on the treads or does the track hug the transition to flange? I've had mixed results here, but I think a snug fit tends to grab tubular track best. Too tight and the loco rises in curves.

(And that was the best, most error free composition I've had in weeks. Didn't have to fight the auto features of the composer once Any error is mine.... and I like em if they are mine at this point )

I hate to here this about this engine. Mine is a PS2 from the B&O set. Mine pulls great. I have loaded it up with cars. I need to check if I have traction tires. I'm not sure. I have not had to zip tie any shoes. Here it is pulling 10 cars.

Have you checked the siderods? They need to have some play. I also oil the pickup rollers and siderods.

Hope  you find an answer.

George

One more thing, I have oiled the axels / wheels of all my cars with Labelle 108 train oil. I've also had an occasional wheel that gets captured and won't spin.

George

I oil some rollers too. Better dry for electrical, but if they need oil, they need oil. It doesn't oil foul bad enough to make a huge difference.

He has wheel spin George, not slowing or binding...or ...you may be right....

   Though too tight could be causing the initial slip as the bind releases delivering a burst of torque. Once spinning, it keeps spinning, the new found speed forcing past the bind easier than at start up.

Did I nail it George?

George,

Yes, the side rods are oiled and no binds.  Your engine is not the same......mine is the conventional "Build a Motor" powered engine, so it's got a side saddle pullmor, e-unit and no traction tires.  I do generally "oil" my rollers with an electrically conductive lube. I haven't done these in a while, but they do spin freely. I'll hit them with a squirt later

Adriatic posted:

I oil some rollers too. Better dry for electrical, but if they need oil, they need oil. It doesn't oil foul bad enough to make a huge difference.

He has wheel spin George, not slowing or binding...or ...you may be right....

   Though too tight could be causing the initial slip as the bind releases delivering a burst of torque. Once spinning, it keeps spinning, the new found speed forcing past the bind easier than at start up.

Did I nail it George?

I think that's right. Drag can cause spin too, which is what I was getting at with oiling the wheels. Try holding your caboose or tender in place while the engine tries to pull. The wheels will slip. With traction tires, you might break a coupler.

George

Adriatic,

Below are some enclosed photos......the first, has nothing really to do with the original topic, but refers to your mention of single roller engines and cars as well as........Rube Goldberg efforts. I took my childhood Gang Car and added a second pickup. LOL   It blows through switches and UCS tracks like nobody's business at any speed. No more herky jerk. Quite the job, though. After 2 prototypes, I ended up taking a PW trolley pickup assembly and removing the second roller arm and jerry rigging an MTH (smaller) roller to that spot and then Dremel away the "hump" on the bottom of the chassis so the roller could move upward. Works like a charm.

The other two photos show the front pilot with the new weights below. The second photo shows weights attached to the rear sides of the cab and also shows the pivot arm of the rear truck in it's "proper" slot. I think that the remaining wheel slip I get is due to the shiny wheels. I just taped on another 1/2 lb of weight to the top of the shell and it did not make a difference. Any slip now I get if I start up on a switch (which I think possibly means that the rollers below have more upward pressure). This thing should be capable of pulling more without slip. I just grabbed my "new" General I worked on and that engine is minuscule compared to this and weighs a fraction of this weight. I also picked up one of my 736s and it also is lighter (albeit with Magnetraction).     

As to your question about gauge. There is definitely quite a bit of lateral movement there. The wheels are not tightly grabbed by the gauge at all. 

I found MTH documentation online. It seems many of the PS2 versions have traction tires. I read here that the traditional versions did not. That's probably why mine pulls so well.

George

For sure.  I wouldn't recommend this one.   I got the PUllmor version because I wanted one that more closely resembled the PreWar version, but was shiny and new. The tradeoff was pulling power and slippage.

No, that is a well thought out modification.

This is an RG. ...at best

But my hack works. It is sprung on the topside (ballpoint spring cut down)

It stays centered, but this one likely won't go through switches. Later evolutions with less U bend + tab lock do. I couldn't find the other shots and you caught me ready to "give up".  Not on this train. Insomnia has flaired again recently, I at least need to rest my eyes a few hours. But I'll be thinking, hopefully it leads to dreaming too.

ROGER1 posted:

For sure.  I wouldn't recommend this one.   I got the PUllmor version because I wanted one that more closely resembled the PreWar version, but was shiny and new. The tradeoff was pulling power and slippage.

I wonder if you could rough up the drivers with sandpaper where the traction tires would otherwise be? I have heard of companies that will mod the wheels to accept a traction tire.

It's amazing how much time we spend thinking about fixing or modifying......."toys". 

ROGER1 posted:

It's amazing how much time we spend thinking about fixing or modifying......."toys". 

Amen!!! Didn't come with a light, lens or interior "window glass"? No problem, I can add those. Needs another motor? We can do that too! To me, that's just part of the fun. 

Well, here's something that puts a monkey wrench into the works.  I noticed last night, that most of the weight of this engine is naturally forward. So, I thought, I'm putting the Snot on the wrong drivers. Today, I took the Snot off the rear drivers and put some tape on the front ones just to test my idea. Much worse. So then, I took everything off except for the weights I had added and it slipped less than any other combination. Meaning....the wheels are bare now. How can that possibly be?

Roger

More even pressure across multiple drivers. The BFS raises whatever wheel it is on. Possible that balance isn't even an issue with enough weight.

I got in 21hrs of "naps" ... "more better" today, but no brainstorm 

   It may take a while or a stronger solvent to remove all traces of silicone too. It tends to leave a slippery silicone trace when you remove thick layers. Silicone can also penetrate tight into metal grain and foul it for paint though it seems fine to the senses. I also banned silicone sprays from my garage once I figured this out. It gets airborne, lands on benches and boxes etc, open sandpaper, migrates onto hands, etc. then onto the metal surface you just cleaned. The,result is fisheye.

Adriatic,

I think those shiny wheels are a big part of the problem. It doesn't slip much and it's alot better than when I started. It's not an issue of not being able to pull. It never "stalls" in an effort to pull. The wheels will slip long before that. I'll stick one more weight in there and that will be the best it can do. It pulls it's consist of modern tinplate (although one of the cars......a big crane car that is massively heavy). Luckily, that heavy car rolls freely down the track in spite of it's weight.   But it's kind of mind boggling that an engine that is as heavy as this one will slip it's wheels. 

Interesting take on the silicone. 

Roger

Bad news tonight. I did a bit more tinkering on it and got rid of all of the slippage. Added one more weight....scuffed up some track rails etc. It was working great. Then all of a sudden, it didn't. I'll have to start another thread because this seems unrelated to my original problem. The thread is .....Probems with the motor of an MTH/Lionel Corp. 263E (traditional).