MTH PS2 3 volt v. 5 volt

PS2 5V uses a 9V rechargeable style battery and was the first implementation of DCS. These boards were made roughly 2000-2004 models.

The reason why it is considered more problematic :

#1 Many were built using known to fail capacitors from that early 2000 era.

#2 Boards are doublesided and double stacked and soldered together and then extra components added after the boards were soldered together. This makes them extremely difficult to repair at the component level.

#3 again, between just age of the board (now approaching 20+ years old, and often original 9V batteries that have failed, many of these die on first power up by a new user. Sure, there are examples of people still running more or less untouched engines with new batteries but the ratio of failed vs still working is kind of luck.

#4 the PS2 5V all used 16 Ohm speakers which are not as common now for replacements as 4 and 8 Ohm versions.

#5 The connectors and wiring harness are specific to the PS2 5V, and are slightly different than the later PS2 3V boards.

Bottom line, once a PS2 5V fails, it's usually not repairable and requires newer either PS3 upgrade kit, or in some cases one can maybe get a used PS2 3V boat set and retrofit.

Conversely, PS2 3V was found in some early MTH G gauge before it began to get put into O scale engines roughly tha 2004-2005 timeframe.

These are newer boards by roughly 5 years and a redesign based on making it easier to repair. The boards are a plug in stack allowing the power board to be replaced separately or repaired if needed.

Since they used a 2.4V rechargeable battery pack, the replacement batteries are more common (cordless phones, and many household items used 2 battery packs that are similar).

Many of the known failures of outputs (example audio amp, comparator for speed control, individual transistors for lights or smoke) are chips that are still available and can be repaired at the component or chip rather than all new boards.

In general, these are believed to be extremely robust by comparison to the 5V boards.

It's this easy to identify:

PS2 5V has the 9V style battery. Either has no changing port or has the round charging port.

PS2 3V has the 2 cell AA or AAA battery pack and a 2 pin charging connector. Also mostly built 2005 or later when speaking about 0 scale.

My personal rule is, I always find the product number of an engine, look up the product page, and note the year built and then pull down the manual. In the manual, I go to the battery replacement section and find out what kind of battery is listed or shown. I also then look att detailed pictures of the engine and try to confirm the charging port style (round or none, VS 2 pin). By doing these steps, I have a good idea if it is a 3V PS2 which is far are desirable IMO.

Another way I know is by product number but this is not all inclusive and there are exceptions. Again this is just my observation and not official MTH guidance.

Example in Premier, for steam engines, 20-31xx-x is the beginning of the PS2 3V. Example, 20-3048-1 is a 5V board with known 9V battery, where a 20-3148-1 engine is most definitely a 2005 made PS2 3V as confirmed via the manual. 20-32xx-x and higher is more definitely 3V, but even then I still follow the process, go to the product page, note the year and read the manual to validate.

For Diesels in premier, 20-22xx-x all the way up to 20-24xx-x are typically PS2 5V, where around roughly 20-25xx-x and higher are PS2 3V and thus a more desirable series.

In Railking, obviously it is 30 series numbers, but example 30-12XX-1  is PS2 5V (using 30-1248-1 as a sample), VS 30-1348-1 is a 2005 produced 3V version.

Again, do not go on number series alone, check other details (manual, timeframe, battery type, and charging port).

So none of us got a full nights sleep?

Also, another technical explanation. As these microprocessors and boards started out in late 1990s, 5V logic was the norm. As advances in transistors and thus chip manufacturing, as well as the push for mobile devices and thus powered by battery lower power and thus lower voltage chips and logic began being built. This is why the name of 5V VS 3V because this is the basic regulated voltage the processor and memory chips run at those specific voltages. The lower the voltage, the lower the heat produced by a chip or conversely, the longer the chip could be powered by a smaller battery pack.

This is why there is that line in the sand.

Even today, you might hear about Arduino based electronics or projects. Those are mostly 5V based logic. Yes, there are exceptions and there are 3V (technically 3.3V) versions as well. These are used for the same reasons. 5V is just the older standard and still valid (many sensors and other items are based in 5V logic), however many newer sensors and processors are based on the 3V standard.

Extremely helpful, Vernon, thanks again. Arnold

I learned a lot here just by getting up early.  thanks

I already knew some of the reasons the 3-volt boards are better, but certainly not all of this.  Thank you Vernon very much!!  Thank you Arnold for asking the question!!

OK, so I just did a survey from my inventory list, only, by MTH stock number, per Vernon's suggestion.  Did not open any boxes to confirm charging port configurations or none thereof.  Simply read the manuals as per MTH support files.  (BTW, there apparently is no manual on file for 20-2349-1, DRGW F3 ABA set)

So, the 'data' suggests I have 7 diesels + 3 steamers with PS2 of the 5v genre.  Since most of them have not been run for a while, I'd guess replacement of the batteries (BCR2?) would be a good first step before a road test?  That'll cost $XXX dollars, I suppose.

Second alternative...destiny...is to replace the 2.0 with a 3.0 on a proactive basis (looking at the odds of 2.0-5v survival not being very good).  Not sure I want to know what that would cost...even if one could get 10 replacement packages...at any price...plus labor...maybe.  Probably talking $XXXXX.

Noticed that PS2-5v's of the same era on the secondary market auctions usually lack anything definitive re the actual condition of the system...or whether it's been replaced...or whether the pre-auction road test was its last gasp....etc., etc., etc..   And, yet, the selling prices aren't that disappointing.  Hmmm...

It's all very discombobulating.  Coupled with lurking Zinc Pestitis possibilities, and, well, I wonder that I'm storing a lot of 'junk'.  It's bad enough to leave the inventory itself for the next-of-kin to deal with.  But, expecting them to be skilled in the hobby's forensics, and, perhaps, ultimately be the coroner?...rather depressing.

Think I'll go get a beer and watch a M*A*S*H re-run.

BTW, Vernon, thanks for your summary and tips.  Good job...ruining my day!  (JUST KIDDING!!)

KD

Update: I just realized that I now possibly have 10 candidates for Dead Rail...Batt power & DCC.   You know...Lemons⇒Lemonade.    For this sort of problem, I'd be open to a 'one-and-done' rebuild option.

  Besides waiting for a PS-3 replacement board that are never in stock. What choice do I have for my 4 MTH  Shelf Queens ?

The only other choice right now is a TMCC upgrade.

I got this from MTH several years ago on when they made the change from 5 to 3V boards. They actually checked each model number I gave them and told what each locomotive had.

Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains. We appreciate your interest in our products. I am afraid I cannot give you an exact date or catalog where we switched from the 5-volt ProtoSound 2.0 to the 3-volt system. For the Pr5emier engines (steam and diesel) in was primarily in the 2004 volume 1 catalog; the majority of the engines offered in that catalog or after have the 3-volt system. For the RailKing engines the switch over was about one catalog later - the 2004 volume 2 catalog. If you have engines that were released around this time we can check on a specific models.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I already knew some of the reasons the 3-volt boards are better, but certainly not all of this.  Thank you Vernon very much!!  Thank you Arnold for asking the question!!

My pleasure, Mark.

nice topic and good info. this explains it all. thanks vernon.

Vernon's post needs to be pinned somewhere for posterity!

I don't have too many engines, and the majority are PS3.  I'll have to check to see what I have.

I recently noticed a listing for a Premier 4-4-0 from the early 2000's on Trainz.  In the description it mentioned that the "tender trucks are starting to show spots of zinc pest".  Yikes!

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I recently noticed a listing for a Premier 4-4-0 from the early 2000's on Trainz.  In the description it mentioned that the "tender trucks are starting to show spots of zinc pest".  Yikes!

I'm suitably impressed with their honesty!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The only other choice right now is a TMCC upgrade.

...Or Dead Rail (Battery power + DCC/Sound)?  (IMHO, of course.)

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

...Or Dead Rail (Battery power + DCC/Sound)?  (IMHO, of course.)

KD

Yep, abandon all your locomotives with working control systems to go to an entirely new environment, makes sense to me... NOT.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, abandon all your locomotives with working control systems to go to an entirely new environment, makes sense to me... NOT.

GRJ...I understand and highly respect your perspective and knowledge on the matter.  In fact, I look to you for many solutions in the Chip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah domain.

So, now correct me if I'm wrong in one more fact re PS2-5v mayhem; When it dies, you are TOTALLY dead.  IOW, you're not even going be able to run conventionally, have ye olde rudimentary sounds of chuff/burble, horn/whistle, bell...are you?  That's my understanding, anyway.  That's becoming of a true "Shelf Queen".

Well, for all the PS1,2,3's and TMCC's, and every variant/upgrade thereof that I have in my O3R stable, I run conventionally.  My choice, my happy place.

So, if it's going to die...sooner or later...and need replacing with 'something' in order to live again...if only conventionally...,  I consider all the alternatives....including TMCC.   

And I find Dead Rail a very intriguing alternative when at the crossroads of health or shelf of my 'queens'.  I converted an LGB Mogul to dead rail for the 'halibut': Totally awesome!  For 20+ years working at the LHS I especially watched enviously as battery technology totally changed the possibilities and outlook for many branches for Radio Control hobbyists.  There are several forumites who are already immersed in the concept of dead rail for O scale.   Besides, I became reasonably comfortable in the conversion to and operation of DCC in the HO realm (for which there are dozens of locals having far more expertise in the DCC realm who can be of help.).

It's a viable, tempting choice for me.

But I fully understand probably not for you...or the legions of devotee's to the existing swamp of O3R control system variants/upgrades/serviceables-or-nots, et alia.

TEHO in Peace.

KD

Well, I just am not willing to give up all the whistles & bells (and smoke) of the modern control systems.  Everything I've seen so far with battery power has me compromising on one or many of the features I'm interested in, so I'm not ready to jump in that pond.  That and I have yet another set of remotes or I have to run it with my phone (ain't happening!).

Need a little write - up on each battery for a quick I.D.

White?

Blue?

Green?

Steve, White (and silver) were the original MTH 9V NiCad batteries used for PS/1 and 5V PS/2.  Blue is the original NiCad 3.2V battery used for 3V PS/2.  Green comes in various sizes and both voltage configurations, they're the more recent NiMh batteries that replaced the NiCad batteries.  The green are 9V, 2.4V AA, AAA, and 2/3 AAA sizes.

2.4V No?

@SIRT posted:

Need a little write - up on each battery for a quick I.D.

White?

Blue?

Green?

For the record, I noted your PM request for me to answer, I just felt that it could get me into a whole mess and I chose to let others jump on that grenade.

@dkdkrd posted:

So, now correct me if I'm wrong in one more fact re PS2-5v mayhem; When it dies, you are TOTALLY dead.  IOW, you're not even going be able to run conventionally,

So I found myself in this situation with a PS2 5V stone cold dead. In fact it had gotten so hot it desoldered the capacitors right off the board. Again, this thing must have cooked and gotten nice and hot.

Well, I cut the bridge rectifier off the 5V board, kept the 5V regulator that is remotely mounted, and made this FM trainmaster run forward only reusing original "dead" parts.

Dead isn't dead, if you get creative.

@GGG posted:

2.4V No?

Thanks, edited original post.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Steve, White (and silver) were the original MTH 9V NiCad batteries used for PS/1 and 5V PS/2.  Blue is the original NiCad 3.2V battery used for 3V PS/2.  Green comes in various sizes and both voltage configurations, they're the more recent NiMh batteries that replaced the NiCad batteries.  The green are 9V, 2.4V AA, AAA, and 2/3 AAA sizes.

Thank you, John.  I made printouts for whoever takes over my R.R. empire down the road. The few remaining PS2's will have super caps installed as time permits. The PS3 power has passed up the former PS2, so no worries there.

So far, so good super caps from Digi-Key. I bought a bag full for around 3-4 bucks ea. years ago. 6.54 today.