MTH REAL TRAX ELECTRICAL GREMLIN

Welcome aboard Stan.

It seem  you guys are trying to make blocks by insulating the outside rails,  It would be much easier to leave all the outside rails connected  together and use the toggles to turn the different blocks on or off Via the center rail hot. .   Yes you would need 4 center rail  insulated joints, (2 on each switch)  and 2 outside rail insulated joints for the non-derailing feature on each switch.   Don't forget your freight cars are like jumper wires jumpering the outside insulated joints. The outside rails don't really get turned "off" until the whole train is in the siding. Not good.

Did you try a different toggle?

Hi Gregg....  Thanks so very much for the quick response.  Yes, to isolate the center rail could be an option.  We looked at the manual for the O31 turnouts and MTH recommends isolating the rails the way we did.  The problem is with the joint at the turnout at the green arrow.  The inner "siding" isolates just like the way the diagram on page 14 of the manual shows...

Everything else is isolated.  We did flip flop the SPST toggles and had the same results.   And yes, again, we are aware that the whole train won't stop until the last car clears the break. 

We would like to keep the non-derailing feature of the turnouts but wonder if that could be the gremlin. 

Thanks bunches for your help..

Yes you can still keep the non-derailing feature if you use toggles to  turn off center rail power...   I don't understand  what MTH is describing, but  I doubt it's  about creating blocks  by insulating the outside rails... 

I think you're making it much  harder than it should be. 

Switch the hot.     

One SPDT toggle to select TIU or Z-1000 conventional... I'd probably use a center off type as well.

  3 on\off type toggles  for the 3 blocks. 

Stan,

   If you have continuity at the green arrows the ends of the rails are most likely touching.

Try taking the track apart and putting a small piece if electrical tape on both the outside rail ends you want to isolate and re assemble.

  Galon Tonell

Stan,

How are you connecting the power feeds from the TIU to the track? RealTrax Lock-on?

RealTrax is designed so that the Lock-on determines which outside rail is the Common(neutral return of AC) by it's orientation.

The plan on page 14 has the lock-ons oriented to the outermost rail being the common for sidings and isolated part of the loop and the main part of the loop has the innermost outside rail connected.

The outermost outside rails are isolated just past the thru and turnout of the switches. to create a block. Sidings(Blocks) A & B are controlled by switching the common with a SPDT switch and the Mainline has constant power. (see attached snip)

Now let's discuss operation. When you have a variable channel on the TIU, why do you want to use the controller handle for conventional train operation? The remote will do that by addressing the variable channel.

MTH recommends using the adapter cables and connecting the Z-1000 brick directly to the TIU. This is because the hot and common of the jack coming out of the brick are reversed. the controller or the adapter cable corrects this. They also recommend to not power the TIU via the MTH controller.

The wiring for this is attached from the MTH DCS manual-p13 . (attached)Connect the leads to Variable 1 and a jumper (hot wire only)to fixed 1 to power the TIU.

Then insert the Variable 1 TIU out terminals in place of the transformer in the layout wiring diagram.

You dial up the voltage for dcs trains and leave it. For conventional trains, you dial up the power as you would use a handle.

Your are going to need for new curves if you clipped off both connectors near the switches.

Next the WIU is added and you operate trains via your portable devices.

I have never heard of breaking outside rails to create blocks, and I'm sure you're misreading MTH.  It isn't practical because trains will be jumping the gap for long periods of time.

The  pic  from Moonman (MTH)  shows the non - derailing feature for one route only . The insulated pins are definitely shown in  the wrong location for non-derailing on r the other route.

 At one time I owned a Real Tra x  switch and believe  it also  has center rail  power routing...  Could be mistaken on that one..  

Guys...  First of all...  Thank you all so very much for ALL your input.   The wealth of knowledge on the forum is fantastic. 

Gregg...  We'll look into the process of isolating the hot wire, however, I think Carl has come up with answers that point to the reason we're having problems..   As you read the comments below, I think the "solution" can be reached....

Galon...   We were concerned with that as well and have isolated all the "track joints" at the "X" spots with a thin plastic separator and there is no contact at the rail ends.   We even separated the track pieces to make sure and with a visible gap of 1/4 inch, there is still contact.     

Carl......   You've really pointed out some issues that we are not aware of.. 

Now let's discuss operation. When you have a variable channel on the TIU, why do you want to use the controller handle for conventional train operation? The remote will do that by addressing the variable channel.

We are not using the handheld remote in this operation..  According to the APP in the iPhone, once the upgraded APP is functional, we will be able to switch back and forth from DCS to conventional on the smart device.  As you know, the upgraded APP for the WIU WiFi operation hasn't been released as it hasn't been fully developed.  The folks at MTH Customer Service have been so very prompt in sharing that.  They "expect" the upgrade to be released in May or so.  Defining words are "or so".     

MTH recommends using the adapter cables and connecting the Z-1000 brick directly to the TIU. This is because the hot and common of the jack coming out of the brick are reversed. the controller or the adapter cable corrects this.

This we were not aware of and quite possibly, probably and could most certainly be our problem.  We do have that adapter cable and will certainly make the corrections in the wiring or could we just switch the input wires to the DPDT Power Routing switch as in this diagram..  I did not include it in the original track diagram and should have.  My Bad!!!!!

 They also recommend to not power the TIU via the MTH controller.

Yes, that we are not doing...  Only from the Z1000 Brick, but if the polarity is reversed, that certainly could be (is) the problem.. 

We'll go back to the engineering department, wake up the nerd, feed him Mountain Dew Extra, a bag of Doritos, a couple of cookies and see what happens... 

Again...  Thanks so very much, guys...  You've done good...     Real good..

Gregg...  We'll look into the process of isolating the hot wire, however, I think Carl has come up with answers that point to the reason we're having problems..   As you read the comments below, I think the "solution" can be reached....

 Sorry  but  I'm a stubborn old cuss and you'll never convince me creating power  blocks using the outside rails is a good thing....   For that reason I'm out.  .  

RJR posted:

I have never heard of breaking outside rails to create blocks, and I'm sure you're misreading MTH.  It isn't practical because trains will be jumping the gap for long periods of time.

It's a control block to disable a train. The longest train to fit is the length of the track between the switches. A & B.  It doesn't matter which side of the circuit that you interrupt. Only one outside rail is active. It's an MTH wiring diagram. See that page in the above post.

That's what they are following.

Gregg posted:

Gregg...  We'll look into the process of isolating the hot wire, however, I think Carl has come up with answers that point to the reason we're having problems..   As you read the comments below, I think the "solution" can be reached....

 

 Sorry  but  I'm a stubborn old cuss and you'll never convince me creating power  blocks using the outside rails is a good thing....   For that reason I'm out.  .  

It's not a block, but an isolation track to park a train with no power. It does not matter which side of the circuit that you interrupt. messing with the center rail on this DCS track plan could mess with the DCS signal.

yes, there different ways to do this, but they are following the plan from the MTH manual

messing with the center rail on this DCS track plan could mess with the DCS signal.

Since I do it on some70+/- toggled blocks, I can assure you it doesn't.

It does not matter which side of the circuit that you interrupt.

Suit yourself.  I'm with Gregg.  The 99-44/100% practice is the way to go

If outside rails are unpowered, you'll get surges as cars with varying degrees of conductivity go over the gap.  Then when the PS2 or PS3 board gets damaged, MTH will be blamed for poor quality.

To quote Gregg, "For that reason I'm out.  . "

I looked in my MTH DCS user's manual and it doesn't show any breaks in the track. What manual are you looking at?

I break the center rail and all my track is connected on the outer rails. 

I'm with Gregg and Robert !

Stan

When you made the turnouts work on auxiliary power did you

A: Remove  jumpers in both turnouts?

B: Are you certain that the neutral for the auxiliary power is on the middle terminal of the turnout?

C; if B is yes , remove all wires from the five screw terminals see if problem goes away

Galon Tonell

Joe Allen posted:

I looked in my MTH DCS user's manual and it doesn't show any breaks in the track. What manual are you looking at?

I break the center rail and all my track is connected on the outer rails. 

I'm with Gregg and Robert !

Hi Joe...  the manual for the REAL TRAX 031 switch.  The diagram on page 14..

Galon posted:

Stan

When you made the turnouts work on auxiliary power did you

A: Remove  jumpers in both turnouts?

Hi Galon...   Yes...  Both Jumpers were removed...

B: Are you certain that the neutral for the auxiliary power is on the middle terminal of the turnout?

Yes...........

C; if B is yes , remove all wires from the five screw terminals see if problem goes away

We'll try that.   Thanks so much..   

Galon Tonell

Just a update, guys...  We ran all day today using both conventional and DCS..  Results were very satisfactory and we had fun running.

Couple of observations...    We were able to run standard DCS with the Wireless Handheld linked to the TIU just fine.  We bit the bullet and tried to run the Wireless Handheld and WiFi (Smart Phone) at the same time with 2 different locomotives.  It worked like a charm..   Switched from one locomotive to another in both the Handheld and the Smart Phone and each locomotive addressed to each phone or Handheld.

Both iPhone and a $10 android phone were used with equal running success.  One thing we did notice is that the APP in the iPhone 6 was able to use many features that the Android and iPhone 4S was not able to address.

Just a note to share that we're going to suspend posting until we can get all the wiring "glitches" fixed and the WIU software updated.....

Again, I can't thank you all enough for your help....  Good on ya'       

Stan,

Did you switch the wires on the output to the track on SPST switches(#1 to outside ,#2 to inside track) to make sure you don’t have a bad SPST switch. If the train now runs on the inner loop with switch 2 off you have a bad SPST switch.

Galon Tonell

Hi Galon...   We haven't had a chance to do any wiring revisions yet.  Because we run the layouts at the mall on the first Saturday of the month, we now have all month to try to get it all "figured out" with all your suggestions and solutions. 

We'll definitely post the results as we get them done. 

[Hi Stan,

Hi Joe...  the manual for the REAL TRAX 031 switch.  The diagram on page 14..]

I now see what you are referring to. I see this would work in conventional, but in DCS the engines will startup in conventional because of the watchdog signal being present only for 5 seconds after the TIU channel receiving power. Of course you can either repower the channel, press the start up button or use Barry's trick to make the engine come up silent.

Learn something everyday.

Stan,

Do what Carl suggests and it should work. One lock-on is wrong and the 4 inner rail connections need replacing at the switches.

Joe Allen posted:

Stan,

Learn something everyday.

Ain't that the truth...

Do what Carl suggests and it should work. One lock-on is wrong and the 4 inner rail connections need replacing at the switches.

It will be a while before we get back up to the layouts but, yup, we sure will, Joe...  Thanks for the input..  

Sounds like you have a good handle on this Stain, You got my phone number or stop over sometime and I will demonstrate to you my system. 

Hi Dan..........     Yup, I certainly have your number.....      And I'll be in touch...

That is good I am sure I can help you.

An update on the electrical “Gremlin” situation that led to this thread on the forum. 

Because, we only run on this layout on the first on the first Saturday of the month, we have had time to fix the problem after our run day on Feb 5^th….   The run time on Feb 5^th went quite well and we were able to run conventional, DCS with the handheld and using the WIU with smart phones. As you can imagine, the smart phones were smarter than some of the older users, but the 4 year old visitors who used the phones showed “the old guys” how to do it, so we were OK.

Using the suggested fixes from members of the forum, the trouble shooting crew “attacked” the problems yesterday and all the issues were fixed. We found that one of the connections on the ground side of one section of track had been bent to the point of not making contact. We fixed that. Then, we rewired the blocks to the SPST toggle switches to break the “hot” leads at each end of the block and everything worked just fine.  

It’s most interesting that all this started by wiring according to the diagram on page 14 for the O31 turnout manual, which didn’t work for us….

Now, when we run conventional locomotives, either or both tracks can be powered or not. When running DCS, all tracks are powered and the controllers (DCS hand held and/or WiFi) will operate the trains. 

Thanks again. We are most grateful for all the help.

 Nice going Stan and your crew, this site is sure helpful. 

It most certainly is, Dan...