Mth signal lights in the summer months

How are you activating them?….that’s the million dollar question,…

Pat

Mth itad the ones that plug into the real track

@chefmarkt69 posted:

Maybe I am nuts and or losing my mind. I have my layout in my basement with dehumidifiers running to keep the humidity at 50% all summer long. I live outside of Boston Ma. I have all MTH signals though out my layout. The signals are all activated by MTH itad devices, the ones that plug directly into the real track . During the summer they act weird some don’t change from red to green and some like my crossing signals don’t want to go back up all the time. In the fall, winter and spring they work normal. Please see the images of which ones I have

Living near Boston , I would assume it is a lot brighter in the summer months.     Do you have any light coming in to your layout area from outside ? 🤔

The ITADs are infared signalled and any light that would be ultraviolet like sunlight or incadescent WILL effect the proper operation of them.

No it is in the basement so no bright light.

Could be anything with the humidity and the plywood that the layout is built with? Or heat in the basement it can reach 80 down there with the dehumidifier running?

As Dallas points out the "I" in ITAD is Infrared. The human eye cannot see infrared. So even if the room does not seem visually bright it could be rich in infrared energy from summer sunlight which can trick the ITAD. OTOH if your basement has no windows or if this happens at night using the same room lighting in all seasons then let's continue sleuthing. ☺

@chefmarkt69 posted:

Could be anything with the humidity and the plywood that the layout is built with? Or heat in the basement it can reach 80 down there with the dehumidifier

Don't know if heat or humidity would cause the issue.   The ITADs are adjustable for sensitivity and duration.    Pat's  (  Harmonyards ) question is interesting .  Are you using an MTH COMMAND SYSTEM with an MTH transformer  or conventional with an  MTH controller and transformer ?

I did notice the light on you walls.  What is the light coming from ?  Were these photos taken during the summer ?

The light in the summer doesn't necessarily have to be direct to cause issues . Just residual light will do it. 

I’m using a Lionel zw 250 transformer it is the old style with the two handles.I have the MTH TIU updated one and the Wi-Fi WIU and use the MTH app on an iPad. For the power for the signals I have them on track power. It does not happen in the winter. Also the pictures I took with the lights on and in the summer I do run it at night and I still have the same issues.

What all are you operating on the zw from the track ?  🤔

Are you running non LED lights in anything on the layout  ? 🤔

Do you run exactly the same trains in the summer that you do in the other months ? 🤔

Is this the first summer that you've had the problem ? 🤔

Is your dehumidifier that you run in the summer on the same fused / breaker circuit as your zw . ?🤔

Is the water from the dehumidifier going directly into a water drain pipe away from the layout room ? 🤔

Do you plug the zw into the auxiliary plug on the dehumidifier ?

If none of this seems to be of import ,we must continue sleuthing with  Stan .

One set of Lionel crossing signals and three MTH itad’s. I have two signals wired to each of the itads. The Lionel crossing signals and one MTH circler signal act up. The crossing signal will go down and not come back up or go down and come back up right away. Maybe the itad might be over heating due to the 80 temp?
yes I have some non leds

yes I do run them all year round

no second summer this has happened

Yes same circuit

water goes into the tank below the dehumidifier

no the zw is plugged into a wall outlet

the itad’s do get warm and can I have multiple signals wired to one itad?

I use one ITAD per operating item.        IMHO  I believe you would have to have each item with it's own ITAD.

     I don't feel any heat on the ITADs that I have but I only operate signal lights with them.

Which Itad do you use?

So maybe me having two signals on one itad is causing it to malfunction when it is warmer in the summer?

@chefmarkt69 If ITAD sensor control of multiple devices simultaneously is your goal without overloading the ITAD, instead of buying more ITADs for each device, how about using the ITAD to control a relay that then controls multiple devices?

I don’t know how and what kind of relay to use and how to wire it up. Would you have this information please and a big thank you. Does this configuration work for you? On your layout?

I don't know for a fact that what Dallas is suggesting (two devices overloading the ITAD outputs) is the cause of your summertime issues.  I've been following this thread because its an interesting mystery to me and I'd like to know the actual cause too.  Currently I don't have any ITADs but  am considering buying some or similar and I do basically understand how they work.  The ITAD instructions don't specify whether more than one device can be connected to its outputs, only to

So Dallas may be onto something, if the ITAD outputs utilize transistorized switching, these may be overloading with too much current draw from multiple devices.  On the other hand NO and NC are designations usually given to relay outputs.  So in short I don't know what exactly is causing the issues.

All I was suggesting is that before you buy more ITADs maybe consider less expensive relays.

Perhaps some testing to reproduce the phenomenon by raising the heat to ~ 80 degrees would be informative.  If you are able to replicate the issue this time of year with added ambient heat, then try removing one of the accessories from one of the problematic IDADs with two accessories currently connected.  If that solves it, then adding relays may be a solution.

To answer your questions about which relay and how to connect it, that's the easy part and I'd be glad to help you with this, if you decide to go that route.

Before deciding what relay may be appropriate for your layout, knowing what existing power sources you already have would be helpful to know.  Low voltage relays are usually powered from either 5 or 12 VDC or 12 or 24VAC.  DC relays are typically less expensive.  So if you have a spare 5 or 12 VDC wall wart power supply, that could be used to power a relay.

OGR being a discussion forum, here's my in-good-faith opinion.  I don't think the problem is attaching two (or more) signals to a one ITAD.  Hence I don't think an external relay will solve the problem.

Specifically, there already is a relay inside the MTH Realtrax ITAD.  The internal relay has the capability to handle dozens of LED-type signals as it appears you have.  I have taken apart the Realtrax ITAD and even reverse-engineered the schematic and posted it here on OGR.  The relay is the black cube on the green circuit board:

The relay does not get any hotter when controlling power to two signals vs. one signal.  Hence that's why I don't think an external relay will help.  In fact the amount of power going thru the relay to switch a typical external relay might be higher than the power going thru the relay to control some MTH LED signal heads!

Again, this is just my 2 cents, but I don't think 80 degrees summer ambient train room temperature is a problem vs. say 65 degrees ambient in the winter.  Likewise, the electronics used in the ITAD should not be affected by variations in humidity and I lived in Boston years ago and recall the sultry sweaty summers!

As unsatisfying as it may appear, I think you should table the discussion until next summer when it happens again.  That is, since it works now (winter time) how would you know a proposed "solution" works?!

@stan2004 Thanks for setting the record straight.  Since the ITAD already has an internal relay, there's no point in adding another.

@SteveH posted:

...

  I've been following this thread because its an interesting mystery to me and I'd like to know the actual cause too.

...

I'm with you on this.  But I think we need to cool our heels for half a year before re-engaging...

Yes all great info and thank you for all the responses. One last thought could it be the plywood expansion from the humidity that pinched some of the wires? That is a long shot thought but hey why not ask. I have realized on the OGF that there many great helping people and there are no stupid questions to ask on here!!! Thank you all

@chefmarkt69 posted:

Which Itad do you use?

I believe mine are the scale MTH ITADs # 45-1028 which look like RR signal boxes.

The one Stan has opened up, I think , is MTH # 40-1028 which is a low roadbed type .   I've used one of those but I had to build a hood over it with only a small opening facing the track.  It was way too disrupted by even my desk light on my work table about 15 feet away from the layout.

I agree with the suggestions to wait til summer for the continuance of this discussion.

NOT SURE WHAT TO THINK OF ON THE PLYWOOD EXPANSION SHIFT.🤔

One last question ........do you drink hot chocolate in the winter and switch in the summer to an adult beverage ?   

@Dallas Joseph posted:

I believe mine are the scale MTH ITADs # 45-1028 which look like RR signal boxes.

The one Stan has opened up, I think , is MTH # 40-1028 which is a low roadbed type .   I've used one of those but I had to build a hood over it with only a small opening facing the track.  It was way too disrupted by even my desk light on my work table about 15 feet away from the layout.

I agree with the suggestions to wait til summer for the continuance of this discussion.

NOT SURE WHAT TO THINK OF ON THE PLYWOOD EXPANSION SHIFT.🤔

One last question ........do you drink hot chocolate in the winter and switch in the summer to an adult beverage ?   

Right.  The RR signal box style, aka Scaletrax ITAD (45-1028), also has an INTERNAL RELAY.  So adding an external relay will not "unburden" the ITAD with respect to load/heating etc..

I concur with Dallas that plywood humidity expansion is not the issue.

Again, that's just my 2 cents.

I have to believe something is emitting the IR, and likely the MTH ITAD is the cheap design that doesn't have a modulated beam to be able to filter out incident IR light.

I love hot coco and peppermint mocha!! I gave up the adult beverages. I liked them way to much!!! So which MTH Itad would be the best one to use?

@chefmarkt69 posted:

I love hot coco and peppermint mocha!! I gave up the adult beverages. I liked them way to much!!! So which MTH Itad would be the best one to use?

I think the ITAD that looks like a RR signal box ( 45-1028 ) is the better unit . 🤔

I’m gonna go in a completely different direction here. I’ll state up front I do not have MTH signals on my layout. The Zstuff signals I have do use infrared to trigger however.

Ok, so here is the question. In the summer months, are you wearing lighter color clothing - eg. white tshirts? I have noticed with one of my Zstuff signals that lighter color clothing will cause the signal to drop to stop simply by me moving about in proximity to the signal. I have tried adjusting the sensitivity on this signal but, it has a mind of its own. I eventually created a grade disk and attached it to the signal mast to provide an “excuse” for trains running past a stop signal.

Definitely off the wall but, just a thought.

Curt

@juniata guy posted:

I’m gonna go in a completely different direction here. I’ll state up front I do not have MTH signals on my layout. The Zstuff signals I have do use infrared to trigger however.

Ok, so here is the question. In the summer months, are you wearing lighter color clothing - eg. white tshirts? I have noticed with one of my Zstuff signals that lighter color clothing will cause the signal to drop to stop simply by me moving about in proximity to the signal. I have tried adjusting the sensitivity on this signal but, it has a mind of its own. I eventually created a grade disk and attached it to the signal mast to provide an “excuse” for trains running past a stop signal.

Definitely off the wall but, just a thought.

Curt

Great thought Curt.

I do see my coal cars running past my ITAD and not responding until three fourths of it going by and an almost immediate response on a consist with light colored cars passing by. 🤔

So this is what happens when the train and cars goes by the Itad. My crossing gates go down and you can hear inside the Itad a click when they drop down. Then after the train goes by and it have been far past the time I set on the ITAd the gates stay down or one goes up and the other stays down. Or on the led round signal the green leds stop working and only the red and yellow ones work. But now in the winter they all work normally. Please riddle me this Batman!!!