MTH Sound file help

 For station stops you will need a Flash memory, but I don't think there is a appropriate sound file suitable for a RDC car.

Hugh;

If there is no sound file for the Budd cars as Chuck says, could you upload the file from one of your current subway system sets and use that?

Rod

For Station Stop with 3V boards Flash is not required.  Sufficient memory is on the board, if my memory serves me-)  G

Rod, there are lots of subway files on the MTH site but you raise another point. On my DCS loader, most recent version 64 bit with net, the ICON to upload from an engine is missing?? What happened there? Has the function disappeared?

I may have to use one of my subway sounds and that way I have similar announcements but I was hoping for closer engine sounds from maybe the F40P or a goose. I will just have to try them.

BTW, I have the right size memory board to stick into the Budd Car.

G & Chuck thanks also for your comments.

It's been stated that the Upload from Engine will be restored in the next version.  Of course, nobody seems to know when or if another version is coming.

Hugh,

Try a file from the latest PS2 B&O Doodlebug.

G,

For Station Stop with 3V boards Flash is not required.  Sufficient memory is on the board, if my memory serves me-)  G

The boards are the same, however, I thought that they had to be flashed for things like subway stops. I know that they need to be flashed for auto pantograph operation.

Hugh, If you go to the store and load the Consumer V2.20 loader you can recover files.

Barry, no longer needed for articulate steam or station stops.  Still needed for pantograph, Quillable Whistle, and maybe some others.  G

G,

no longer needed for articulate steam or station stops.  Still needed for pantograph, Quillable Whistle, and maybe some others.

That's good to know - thanks! 

Is that the case for all 3 volt boards, or only the latest batch?

Thanks all,

I got some good ideas. Doodlebug may just work.

I will keep you posted.

There are 2 types of chips on 3V boards that may use "Flash" memory technology.  The processor chips (shown in the photo) may or may not be of the Flash type.  You need an appropriately programmed Flash processor chip for the quillable whistle and certain other non-standard engine types as correctly pointed out by GGG and Barry.  But there is a separate Flash memory chip (not shown but on the back of this 3V board) that holds the actual sound-file.  This memory chip is ALWAYS of the Flash type though it comes in single or 2x double memory sizes depending on the complexity of the sound-file.  Obviously you can't put one of the larger sound-files in the smaller Flash memory chip.

The OP already has a board that supports "station stop" sound-files, so he's good to go assuming the candidate sound-file he chooses fits in the Flash memory chip (single or 2x double) he has.

Thanks for that one. Picture & explanation are worth keeping.

Barry, Any of the 3V boards.  But as Stan points out the sound file has to fit on the memory chip.  As an example though, when replacing PS-2 5V flash board for an articulate steam, I can use the AE-15/16 boards which are 3V with 5V connectors.  Most of these still use the 1X or 1Meg memory, and since all the PS-2 5V files convert are under 1MEG the smaller memory chip works fine.  No need to order a flash board. G

I am back to needing help on this. It may be a procedural issue. Before putting the trolley board in the Budd Car last night, I did not check any of the details that Chuck stated here. I put the trolley board in and the Budd ran fine with all the trolley stops working. Then I went to load in a new sound file. Engine seemed to have all its functions, but when I went to 'learn' mode, and then hit soft key LST to get a list of the stops, nothing..... I loaded 4 different files all with the same symptom and then finally downloaded the original trolley file and would up with the same symptoms.

The Loader says the board has 2.0 MB and the sound files all say 1.0 MB so they should fit. That is where I sit right now.

 BTW, I did all the recover, reset and whatever else to bring engine back to original without success.

My guess is when you loaded the other sound file, you lost the flash memory in the board. It is now a ROM only. You may have to send the board to MTH to be re-flashed.

What a difference a day makes!

This morning I removed the cab to look for something like a loose connection or something. I did not find any. All my sound file work thus far was with the cab on. By circumstance, with the cab off, I tried the sound file, now the original trolley and it worked correctly giving me the LST of station stops. With cab off, I loaded the doodlebug file and it worked also.

I have to run off to a meeting so I will continue this tonight and I have some ideas as what might be wrong as I have made modifications to the unit.

I will keep you posted. At least we know it is not the board or the sound file which caused this problem.

Hugh, Good to hear, but I want to know what is modified in the shell that can cause you to lose soft key functions.  If really the case and not just OE :-)  G

Ok,

We have a solution and the culprit was discovered.

Some time ago I installed a camera in the cab of the powered Budd car. Here is the link that describes the installation.

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=854&categoryId=

Installation put the camera with its antenna into the cab powered by a 9V BCR. A receiver is mounted into the closet powered by a 12V DC from a plug in reducer which is plugged into my main power distribution. One switch throws the whole layout on including the receiver.

So after closing up the cab onto the engine, placing on track and doing the sound file download, the engine camera was powered up and transmitting to the receiver but I never gave it any thought. This camera transmission was somehow effecting the download of the sound-file to the engine.

When the cab was off the engine, the camera plug was disconnected thus no camera transmission and a good sound file load. This happened by chance when I loaded again this morning.

Tonight I load again with Camera (now out of the cab) but plugged in and transmitting and sure enough, that was it! Got a corrupted file.

This whole subject allows me to address two other things.

One is a simple question.

Whenever I use a board from another engine into a different one, I just wind up renaming the engine in the handheld to the new engine install after loading the sound file because if I do an 'add MTH engine' after the install, it comes back with the old engine's name rather than the new sound file's engine's name.

QUESTION: When adding an engine, where does the TIU/Handheld find the engine details?

The second is kind of a venting on the DCS Loader instructions.

Having helped others on the phone after they can't get the download of sound file working it always comes down to a mis reading of the screen instructions. Here is a picture of my writing of what I feel leads to a better understanding of the steps for the download process. I have had guys hung up on the words. What do you think?

Hugh,

 

QUESTION: When adding an engine, where does the TIU/Handheld find the engine details?

 

The engine.

Here is a picture of my writing of what I feel leads to a better understanding of the steps for the download process. I have had guys hung up on the words. What do you think?

If I was writing documentation that accompanied a product, rather than embedded documentation, your words might be a bit more clear, although I'd use a somewhat different style altogether. However, as far as embedded instructions go, IMO the ones within the Loader Program are really just fine.

In my experience problem solving with others over the phone and in-person, I've found that the problem generally lies with people not paying attention to instructions as written, rather than with the words. While your changes might make the instructions a bit more precise, I don't believe that the results would be appreciatively better.

Barry!!!!

Of course I know it is in the engine. Where in the engine? Obviously on the board somewhere? Where and how is it permanently written?

Thanks for your comments on the rewrite.

Hugh,

Where in the engine?

ROM/RAM.

Hugh, the "engine details" as you call them are embedded in the Sound File (with the .MTH filename for PS2). The Loader sends this file from your PC via the TIU and over the track signal to the engine.  The engine's processor chip (shown earlier) decodes this track signal and permanently stores the Sound File in the Flash memory chip (described, but not shown earlier).  Presumably your camera corrupted the data as it was being stored in the memory chip - just a guess though.

During operation, the remote/TIU reads these engine details from the Flash memory chip.  But as during writing, the data goes through the engine's processor chip.

There are other engine systems where you change "engine details" by swapping a socketed chip or module on the engine electronics board.  PS2 is not that way.  In the too-much-information category, I suppose in theory you could unsolder the PS2 memory chip and move it over to another PS2 engine board to transfer the "engine details".  Again, this is just to illustrate a point (don't try this at home!). 

Stan,

Not everything resides in the sound file.

For example, the engine's name, Custom Name, PS2/3 board serial number, and playable whistle data and operating pantograph code (I'm not referring to the associated soft keys), do not.

Barry, you are correct.  In addition to the "stock" information in the soundfile, any user-added "engine details" such as those you mention are also stored in the Flash memory chip.  We know these details are transferred if he moves the engine board set to another chassis (as he points out).  But to expand on the pedagogical example, if he were able to move "just" the memory chip to another board set that supported his engine type, those engine details would be transferred to the new engine.

Stan,

Thanks for the intellectual answer I was striving for. It is, by nature of your expertise, an educational response and one perhaps others beside myself can benefit from. Thank you.

Barry,

Sometimes your one word or one line answers are really condescending in nature. It would please me (probably all of us) if you would be more expansive and educational in the manner in which you address reply to people needing assistance. Thank you!

I forgot to mention that the camera in operation only effected the download process and not the operation once the good file was downloaded. This begs the question as to whether other frequency operations around the train room can create a similar issue.

Another question for all the gurus following this thread. (self excluded)

Has any pursued or attempted to crack the code so a user can develop his own list (LST) of station stops?

Hugh,

Sometimes your one word or one line answers are really condescending in nature. It would please me (probably all of us) if you would be more expansive and educational in the manner in which you address reply to people needing assistance.

Condescending? If you don't want my answers, feel free to block my replies. Regardless, kindly refrain from speaking for anyone except yourself.

Now, I'll excuse myself from further answering your questions.

Stan to expand on this a little more,  the Sound File and the Serial Number File (Dealer loader information) goes to the memory chip on the bottom of the processor.

The Flash code such as Quillable Whistle or Operating Pantograph is Flash Code placed on one of the Processors on the top board.

Correct?  G

G, correct.

The sound-file as downloaded from the website is what I call "stock" data or that which is common to all engines of the selected type.  This would include the station stop announcements and sounds in Hugh's case.  Additionally, the memory chip stores non-"stock" data that comes from a variety of sources.  For example, the user can store a custom Name.  The manufacturer can store the serial number.  And the engine itself can store the changing odometer and chronometer information.

Separately, you have the software program which makes the PS2 become a particular type of engine.  The term "code" (vs. "data) is as good a term as any to distinguish the difference.  And, yes, this code is stored in the processor chip as the photo shows.  You need a Flash processor chip to make a PS2 engine become any of the more "interesting" engine types (quillable whistle, operating pantographs, to use your example...or the Coors engine to use my favorite "interesting" engine!). 

For those not familiar, in practical terms, Flash means it can be changed.  Only MTH can change the Flash processor chip.  Anyone with a TIU and Loader can change the Flash memory chip with a new sound file.  This is why it was important to establish that Hugh had a processor programmed with the "code" that supported station stops in the first place.  Otherwise it would have been a fool's errand to download different station stop sound-files since the "code" (processor chip) would not know how to interpret the "data" (memory chip).  

If that's not confusing I don't know what is!

Do not attempt to transfer this view of the world to PS3 which benefits from processor and memory technology improvements which eliminate most if not all of the mix/match restrictions described above.

Stan & G,

Thanks much for the continued dissertation on the subject. It certainly becomes clear that creating one's own station stop announcements is not possible on PS2.

Barry, don't run away mad your suggestion to use the doodlebug was a good one.

Thanks all

Stan,  Just to clarify once point.  Hugh had a PS-2 3V processor.  My understanding from MTH is that because of the expanded Memory chip on the PS-2 3V boards or maybe even the expanded memory on the processor, that for Articulated Steam and Station Stops you don't need the Specific Flash Processor board like you did for PS-2 5V.

So in Hugh case the station stops don't need a specific Flash 3V board, the sound file has the "code" the processor needs and station stops can go into any 3V board. 

If he had a PS-2 5V board he would need the correct flash processor.  G

G,

I realize you know this first part, but let me step back a bit.  My intent (successful or not) was to clarify that there are 2 key chips on PS2-3V (processor and memory) that determine the functionality of the engine.  The processor chip may or may not be Flash technology (contents changeable only by MTH).  The memory chip is always of the Flash technology (changeable by the user with the Loader).

The processor chip contains the program (I'm calling it "code") that makes the board a type of engine.  The memory chip (with the soundfile or what I'm calling "data") then customizes the engine with unique horn sounds, or bell sounds or, in Hugh's case, specific city or station names and announcements. 

So getting to your comment.  I am fairly certain you CANNOT load a station stop soundfile into ANY PS2-3V board and expect it to work.  Stated differently, the soundfile does NOT contain the "code" to make the processor act as a station stop capable engine.  What I was observing was since Hugh has a PS2-3V board that does have a processor chip programmed with the "code" to support station stop soundfiles, that he would be able to change just the soundfile "data" to get different station stop sounds albeit with the baggage of different running sounds, Horn, Bell, etc..  An observation which supports this is the aftermarket PS2-3V Upgrade kit appears to only support steam and diesel engines.  It seems to me that if any 3V board could support station stops, that MTH would advertise a Subway and/or Trolley upgrade kit...in my opinion of course!

I'm not sure about the mix/match restrictions on the PS2-5V boards.

Since the "sound" files also control the behavior of lighting, it's not too much of a stretch to think they might also control other aspects of the behavior.  After all, I can load a steam file into a diesel and get chuffing smoke, something that is amusing to watch.

Good point GRJ, we've also seen how choosing different "sound" files when converting a non-PS2 engine to PS2 affects the quest to get 4 chuffs per wheel revolution.  In other words, the motor or scale MPH behavior is also hidden in this sound "data" file.

Stan,  I guess I will test it.  I did several repairs on Redbird and PCC upgrading from PS-2 5V to PS-2 3V and I though (with conviction) that MTH sent regular 3V boards.

I have used diesel board kits in steam, and vice versa.  The kit is not about the board, they are the same.  It is about the harness that come in the kit.  At one point Upgrade kits were sent with no sound file at all, they just had a test code in the board.

I know for a fact (recently done for MTH), an articulate 5V was upgrade to 3V with out a flash board being use.  So the articulated chuff is embedded in the sound file for 3V boards.

I thought I was told the same for station stops.   G

The PS/2 kits I've installed have only had test software in them, the horn and bell were basic tones, not anything remotely real.  To get an actual working model, you needed to add a sound file.

G,

I think we are still all on the same page.  The processor on the 3V board you received for the Redbird / PCC repairs obviously supported station stop features.  I don't know what a "regular" board is.  I do know that it takes a 3V board with a Flash processor on it to support some of the unusual/interesting engine types.

I understand your point about the harness being the basic difference between steam and diesel kits.  However, I'm suggesting that IF PS2 kits could support station stop features by loading an appropriate soundfile, then MTH ought to advertise this to all the non-PS2 trolleys and subways out there.  I'd think you might even be able to use the diesel kit's harness maybe with some wires stripped out?

I always "assumed" that the 2mb PS/2 boards would support any of the locomotives, but I don't have anything to really back that up.

I am in the middle of a diesel upgrade now and will try to put a station stop file into it when I am done.

I know I tried loading station stops into the Budd years ago with no luck, the board was original and may not have had enough memory although the file size by the DCS loader for station stops is only 1 MB.

That is the reason I waited till I could get my hands on a 3V board with station stops in it which I did with the broken trolley.

Still wish I could program in my own station stops so every area of my layout could have its own name.