MTH Z4000 and Lionel ZW-L Power output specs?

hello BigBoy4014.........

I believe the Z-4000 total output is 432 watts.  sometime ago one of the forum member did tell me how to figure this out but I forgot who ? I did remember it was 432 watts.  I am not sure the output is on the ZW-L is but the Z-4000 has bee around for almost 20 years now and there been very few reports of trouble on this unit.  I cannot say much for the ZW-L as it has not been around long enough (2012).  For your layout power requirements, using can motored locomotives and LED's for lights you should be okay using the Z-4000 or use 2 of them.

just my nickel's worth

Tiffany

The Z-4000 is rated at and will deliver 360 watts to the track between 2 power districts limited to 180 watts each.

The ZW-L is rated at and will deliver 620 watts to the track among 4 power districts, with no more than 180 watts to any one district at a time.

BigBoy

Good timing re this post. I'm having trouble running two "hi amp" passenger sets on the same 170' presentation loop using a Z 4000. A scale UP stream liner using K-Line multi-motor F-7's and a K-Line tuscan NYC heavyweight set pulled by a Lionel pullmotor Mohawk.

A reasonable running speed requires lots of volts and amps. The Z tops out at 17 volts with this load and the amps are high enough to eventually trip the breaker.  Just today I wired up a 350 watt multi-tap transformer (6, 12, 18, 24 and 36 volts) for a test.

Runs great on the 18 volt tap. 24 volt is really scary (and dumb)! Looking for a 500 watt 500 ohm rheostat, fast breaker and meters. I'll build my own loop transformer and it won't cost much..

Hello BigBoy4014....

youre very welcome.  Few days ago i was running the 1989 Lionel GG1 Amtrak aluminum passenger set and with 8 cars, it drawn 6.5 amps on my Z-4000 at 15 volts but the cars had so much drag on it that the engine could not even pull it after oiling axles and roller pick ups.  The Z-4000 didn't even get warm or break a sweat.  I think youre right that better off getting one ZW-L rather 2 Z-4000's for cost wise and space savings.

Tiffany

A Watt is a Volt times Amp or some times stated as VA.  Besides the overall power rating (W or VA) you need to look at the current rating I too.  Remember you control voltage, but the load will drive the amperage drawn.

So if you only apply 12 volts, but the load draws 10amps you are at 120 Watts, but you hit the amp limit.  If you used 18V and 10 amps your at the power and current limit 180W.

180W and 10 Amps seems to be the standard for an output.

The bigger difference is that the Z-4000 is pure sign wave output and can go up to about 22Volts.  MTH engines can handle up to 24V.

Lionel uses a modified Sine wave output and limits voltage to 18V.  Lionel engine with command can be damaged with voltage above 18Vs.

The Z-4000 has 2 track outputs with 2 fixed voltage outputs, has programming features for PS-1 engines.

ZW-L has 4 track capable outputs.

Both can be controlled by their command systems, but the Z-4000 needs an adapter.

I would say the ZW-L is more capable if you need all that power.

The Z-4000 is very robust and has been a great modern pure wave transformer.

So what you operate, how much power you need in 1 transformer, and cost will drive your decision.   G

I have a ZW-L.  I have never owned a Z4000 so I cannot comment on that one.

The ZW-L total output is 620 Watts.  It has 4 power channels (A-D).  The transformer will distribute power automatically to the 4 channels as needed, depending on your requirements.  It has 2 sets of volt and amp gauges.  The gauges can display the volts and amps for all 4 power channels.  Since you will be using TMCC, you can control the ZW-L via the remote.  If a short occurs, you can reset the power channel via the remote (very handy).  It also has 4 manually resettable circuit breakers.  It has a built in fan will kicks in as needed.  Its very quiet.  It is a chopped sign wave transformer.  At full voltage the chopped sign wave becomes mostly a full sign wave.  This really improves older pullmor engine performance.  I still run some conventional engines and they can really crawl with this transformer.

My layout has 2 main lines, 18 switches, and a yard.  All of this is powered by the ZW-L.  I can double head 2 older gg-1s (4 pullmor motors) and a string of lit passenger cars on one main line as still have plenty of power for the other main, siding and switches.

If you need lots of power, you will be pleased with it.

A Watt is a Volt times Amp or some times stated as VA. 

It is close to that, but you would really have to know the power factor to get the actual wattage based on the current and voltage.

My experience - - - 

I had two Z-4K's which I replaced with one ZW-L. The single ZW-L was more than enough to do what the two Z4K's did, and I couldn't be happier with my decision. Later on, I added another ZW-L.  I found that the Z4K's voltage outputs varied appreciably (21v to 16.5v) depending on what was running, and had to adjust the 'handles' to maintain a more constant voltage on the tracks. 

The ZW-L's, on the other hand, maintain their outputs at a rather constant level regardless of what is running. I have all eight outputs set to the maximum, which is around 18.6 v, and have no problems running anything without worries about voltage level changes.

Alex

Thx for all who replied. I am looking at a ZW-L  almost NIB on ebay for around $600 shipped if I get it, I'll sell my Z4000 and reduce the $$ damage .

Does the "chopped or modified" ZW-L sine wave effect any MTH, Lionel, Weaver and/or Sunset locos, DCS or Accessories in any Negative way vs the Z4000 pure sine wave????

Come on Alex do we really want to go there....  Ok use .8.   G

"...go there" No, not really, G; that is why I left it as an open statement. But I will settle for 0.8  

Alex

I have never verified that the ZWL will put out its full rated power of 720 watts.  I have verified that it will simultaneously put out 180 watts per channel on at least three channels simultaneously, and about 60-75 watts for accessories.  I have no reason to doubt it will do the full 720 watts.

I did similar tests on a Z4K and it did 10 amps per side plus 60 for accessories.  I don't recall its rating - it may have been capable of more, but I doubt it has the capability of the ZWL.

One thing to keep in mind, both units have a lot of core and electronics losses.  When outputting that 615W (three times 180 to trains plus 75 to accessories), the ZWL was using about 7 amps at 122 volts from the wall socket, or around 850 watts.   Similarly, I recall the Z4K would use 5 amps when doing about 400 - 500 amps output.  

Since we have recent experience with a new ZW-L and have several Z400's, there is no comparison between the two. The ZW-L will serve you well.

620.

Maybe . . . As I said, it output 615 or so for me with no problem but I didn't test it above that.   

But the Lionel website says "A full 720-watts of power are built inside the unit, so there’s no need for separate power bricks."  Right here . . . 

http://www.lionel.com/Products...1&CategoryID=116

Gentlemen,

    IMO it's not just the power you need to look at, when adding a transformer to your layout, different transformers bring different running options, such as the side receiver on the Z4K.  The golden rule is to never under power your layout, sooner or later you will want to expand your layout.  However if you have a small layout, you do not really need any thing more than a modern Z-1000 or an old 275 ZW.  If you have a fairly big multi level layout, owning both the Z4K & the ZW-L or multiple original ZW's is definitely something to consider.  Running both DCS & Legacy there are some real neat options only the matching transformers can provide, for this reason it's not just the pure power output, that one needs to consider.  It's the options you want to operate your layout, that becomes another big factor.  Money is also a big consideration, you can save a lot of money using the old ZW's and they work real well with both DCS & Legacy, again you give up certain running options using them. 

Scotty we need more Power!

PCRR/Dave

Don't believe everything you read on the internet

Seriously, though, that was pre-production. The production ZW-L is rated at 620 watts maximum output.

Is the ZW-L UL approved?  I do know that the Z4K is UL approved.

Seriously, though, that was pre-production. The production ZW-L is rated at 620 watts maximum output.

As can be seen on the cover of the owner's manual: 

http://www.lionel.com/media/se...7921250ZWLManual.pdf

"AC OUTPUT: 18 V; 620 VA."

Also in the manual:

    Safety Information Your Lionel ZW-L is equipped with three levels of overload protection: dynamic power limiting, fold- back current limit, and circuit breakers. Each output has its own fold-back current limit and circuit breaker. The dynamic power limiting is applied across all four outputs. This provides multi-layer protection for your trains and transformer while supplying the maximum power possible for pulling lighted cars or fighting over grades with heavy loads.

    Dynamic power limiting allows the 620W available from the transformer to be shared across the four outputs as necessary to power the connected loads. Up to 180W is available to each output as long as the total power of all four outputs does not exceed the 620W transformer rating. When the 620W total is reached the output that tried to take more power will be limited to maintain the 620W total. The red light on the transformer will flash while the output is being limited. The transformer can run in this mode indefinitely and will not shut down. When more power becomes available because of a change in the demand from the other outputs it will be automatically given to the limited output.

Sure there is.  Read my post, there are plenty of comparisons to be made G

In this case, it was entirely intended & engineered that the ZW-L would produce 720 watts, and it is probably capable, but it had to be "throttled" back in the firmware to achieve ETL listing.

No, the original intention was for the ZW-L to match the 720 VA output capability of its immediate predecessor.

Oh, Ok thx.

 

Some sellers are advertising the ZW-L as a 720 watts (VA actually) transformer, some one may get very angry if they find out they are 100 VA short

 

Originally Posted by ADCX Rob:

No, the original intention was for the ZW-L to match the 720 VA output capability of its immediate predecessor.

 

Those sellers are probably cutting and pasting the same info Lee found.

Myself and plenty others who pre-ordered one when it was announced were (at least at first) plenty miffed when the wattage went down by 100 with no price reduction.  After receiving it though, I was willing to let that go and liked it enough to buy another.

Everything Rob has said regarding the evolution from 720 to 620 is correct.

-Dave

Interesting.  This means that when I stress-tested mine, I had it maxed out, since I was doing around 615 - 620 watts.  It really was not putting out nearly as much hot air from its cooling slots as I would have expected for a maxed out unit: there was noticeable warm air coming out, but it felt like there was a lot of mass inside that was quite warm, but not hot, as stuff designed for a particular power level usually is at that level. Probably this is because it was initially intended for 720 watts and has heat sinks, etc., sized for 35% more heat (720/620 squared).  That bodes well for a long service life and explains why it runs so cool: see, it really is cool unit!