MTH Z4000 compared to Z1000

I have had a Z-4000 since it first came out in 1997 and it has proven trouble free. Indeed, judging by this forum, major issues appear to be very rare with it. I like that a full 10A and 180W is available on both main handles, no annoying "foldback" or oversensitive circuit breakers (the Z4000 handles overload and short conditions electronically). Also, the waveform agrees with nearly everything, the exception being the Conventional Classics horn boards.

I have had the exact same positive experience with the Z4000 as Uberstationmeister. It provides more than enough power for my 2 main lines that are each over 40 feet long, and I've had no trouble whatsoever with it since I bought it when it first came out around 1998. It's great for running Lionel of all eras, Williams, KLine, etc., as well as all MTH.

By the way, Uberstationmeister, I co-wrote a song entitled Uber Driven Hard Drivin' Man. You can hear it if you Google that song title, Arnold Cribari and Don Solomon. LOL. Arnold

Last year I replaced my postwar Lionel ZWs with 2 Z4000s and am very happy with their performance. We visited the NJ Hirailers last month and I learned they power their massive layout with the Z4000, I think 11 of them. If it can stand up to that kind of workload, I'm very confident it will power my 11' x 24' layout. 

John

Ditto the positive Z4000 comments here. Ihave owned 2 since they were first released and no problems whatsoever. Years ago I did some load testing on one and discovered that you can pull the full rated 400 watts using both handles, for extended periods of time without any overheating. As soon as you exceed 400 watts it crowbars and all outputs go to zero. Back off slightly and full outputs resume. As long as you don't exceed 12 amps per handle the breakers won't trip, but you can pull the full 12 amps. Great transformer. My only real gripe, and it's a minor one, is the need to zero output the handles each time you power it on.

Rod

Not too many folks know this, but the Z4K has 2 additional outputs I love... a 14v constant output that I use for accessories, and a 10v constant output I use for my bump and go trolley lines.  

I am impressed with mine.  I use one to power my layout, have had it for many years, zero problems.  I use one handle for two loops, the other handle for a third loop and the engine storage track, and the 14v output for my switch machines.  I have another that I used in the past for a Christmas layout and I have been thinking maybe I should use the 2 z4000s for my main layout, but the one alone is handling all the tasks well and I feel like don't mess with success.  😃

My railroad has been exclusively powered by a Z4000 since 2009, and its performance is without fault. For the buck, the Z4000 is the best buy in my opinion.

If ever there was a "bulletproof" transformer, the Z4000 is it. It is also UL certified. Great digital meters and fan cooled. I have one I bought in 1998 and it has never had any issues. I also have a newer spare in its box which I brought from my other home in NC. Definitely a landmark technical achievement for MTH and our hobby! NOTE: I use and recommend a good quality surge protection device. Mine is a Monster brand home theatre unit, and my lab-quality switchable DC power supply for my LGB is also plugged into it.

Volphin posted:

Not too many folks know this, but the Z4K has 2 additional outputs I love... a 14v constant output that I use for accessories, and a 10v constant output I use for my bump and go trolley lines.  

Also, I love the Remote option that one just Plugs and Plays. Each remote controls two tracks!

Yep, you cannot go wrong with a Z4000! It isn't for everyone, especially those that require more than two throttles and more power per throttle. I have used mine with both the TMCC and  Legacy control systems with no issues!

I bought my Z4000 used from a buddy about four years ago - retiring my Postwar ZW to Christmas tree layout duty.  Absolutely no regrets with the Z4000.  Count me as yet another “fan”!  👍

Curt

My dad was hesitant about the Z4000 at first but it has really grown on him and it is now more used than his old ZW. We tried to replaced the the zw & z4000 with a new ZW-L but he didn't like it as much. The way the chopped sine wave operated his trains just irritated him. It didn't bother me, but that was his call.

A little more info on the Z4K

The two throttles are each good for 165 VA according to the nameplate, at least on these first run units. This means that if you are pulling a steady 10 amps you might not get the nominal 18VAC suggested for DCS and TMCC/Legacy operation. And if you are pulling 12 amps it will be less. But you will get a full 330 watts of useable power, total of both handles. Compare this to the venerable ZW which is rated at 275 watts; but you can only draw about 160-170 watts steady load (total of all 4 outputs) without them overheating and frying. Don't ask how I found this out! 

Rod

Rod, what is the Serial number of your Z4000?

Early ones (serial number starts with 0398) were rated as you described. Later models were rated at 180va per throttle handle.

One thing I don't understand about the Z4000: the fixed outputs have breakers that trip instantly in the event of a short. The breakers for the track output take a few seconds and I think 7 flashes of the red light before power is cut off. How would that protect the electronics of a modern train? I called MTH tech support and they said that is normal operation. 

Duh, it’s like four times better

Farmer_Bill posted:

Duh, it’s like four times better

 

Duh, Farmer Bill, please forgive my ignorance here. It's my understanding that unless power is cut off instantly, the electronics in a modern loco will fry in the event of a derailment. If they put fast-acting breakers on the fixed outputs, why wouldn't they put them on the track outputs?

John

BlueComet400 posted:

Farmer_Bill posted:

Duh, it’s like four times better

 

Duh, Farmer Bill, please forgive my ignorance here. It's my understanding that unless power is cut off instantly, the electronics in a modern loco will fry in the event of a derailment. If they put fast-acting breakers on the fixed outputs, why wouldn't they put them on the track outputs?

John

Ughh....

H1000 posted:

Rod, what is the Serial number of your Z4000?

Early ones (serial number starts with 0398) were rated as you described. Later models were rated at 180va per throttle handle.

H1000; that is interesting info; did not know that (or maybe just forgot). The one I tested is an older first run 0398 SN, and my other one is the same era, so likely the same. So this means that you can pull 2 x 180 VA = 360 VA, not including the aux 10 and 14 V outputs. I note these are rated for 3 amps each, which is twice that of the older Z4000's. So you can theoretically pull total of 360 + 30 + 42 = 432 VA. Since the UL certification is still 400 watts max I imagine, the internal circuitry must still shut the unit down when this is exceeded, regardless of the combination of outputs used. This probably also means that the newer versions Z4000 would be more desirable than the previous ones on the used market. 

Rod

Rod Stewart posted:

H1000 posted:

Rod, what is the Serial number of your Z4000?

Early ones (serial number starts with 0398) were rated as you described. Later models were rated at 180va per throttle handle.

H1000; that is interesting info; did not know that (or maybe just forgot). The one I tested is an older first run 0398 SN, and my other one is the same era, so likely the same. So this means that you can pull 2 x 180 VA = 360 VA, not including the aux 10 and 14 V outputs. I note these are rated for 3 amps each, which is twice that of the older Z4000's. So you can theoretically pull total of 360 + 30 + 42 = 432 VA. Since the UL certification is still 400 watts max I imagine, the internal circuitry must still shut the unit down when this is exceeded, regardless of the combination of outputs used. This probably also means that the newer versions Z4000 would be more desirable than the previous ones on the used market. 

Rod

Rod, I never caught the 1.5 amp accessory ratings on the older Z4000's. For some reason I want to say that my dad's z4000 (early serial starts with 0398) is 3 amps but I going to confirm the next time I'm at his house.

Another difference I've noticed is when the Z4000 is first turned on. The two voltage readouts always indicate 4000 (40 00) but the the amperage display will differ between the early and the later models. Early units display 0123 (01 23) and the later models display 0124 (01 24). A minor detail that I've noticed and not sure if anyone really knows the true significance.

I have three Z4000s and I have not had any issues.  While it may not be considered to be sufficient to protect our engine's electronics, I have had no issues with derailments frying my electronics either from them, my z1000 bricks or my Lionel 180 bricks.  What I like about my Z4000s and my dual pure transformers are the amp read-outs.  I have a tenancy to load up my loops with multiple engines and trains and with the amp readout,  I can manage smoke and speeds to keep the amps below 8 amps for any particular loop.

H1000 posted:

Rod Stewart posted:

H1000 posted:

Rod, what is the Serial number of your Z4000?

Early ones (serial number starts with 0398) were rated as you described. Later models were rated at 180va per throttle handle.

H1000; that is interesting info; did not know that (or maybe just forgot). The one I tested is an older first run 0398 SN, and my other one is the same era, so likely the same. So this means that you can pull 2 x 180 VA = 360 VA, not including the aux 10 and 14 V outputs. I note these are rated for 3 amps each, which is twice that of the older Z4000's. So you can theoretically pull total of 360 + 30 + 42 = 432 VA. Since the UL certification is still 400 watts max I imagine, the internal circuitry must still shut the unit down when this is exceeded, regardless of the combination of outputs used. This probably also means that the newer versions Z4000 would be more desirable than the previous ones on the used market. 

Rod

Rod, I never caught the 1.5 amp accessory ratings on the older Z4000's. For some reason I want to say that my dad's z4000 (early serial starts with 0398) is 3 amps but I going to confirm the next time I'm at his house.

Another difference I've noticed is when the Z4000 is first turned on. The two voltage readouts always indicate 4000 (40 00) but the the amperage display will differ between the early and the later models. Early units display 0123 (01 23) and the later models display 0124 (01 24). A minor detail that I've noticed and not sure if anyone really knows the true significance.

H1000; I think you will find the 0398 SN units are only 1.5 amp aux outputs, but let us know what you find out. Check the pic I posted earlier of a 0398 unit. Also I have often wondered if the startup volt and amp readings are some sort of POST readout that can be used to diagnose problems? But who knows what the decoding of the numbers might mean. I don't think MTH has ever published this info, but it may be out there?

Rod